Just how many people hate Windows 8?

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

Out of the 7 billion people on Earth, 6 billion, 999 million, 999 hundred thousand, and 90 people hate Windows 8.

The only 10 people that like it are the 10 peeps on this forum who think its the best thing since toilet paper.

[PGHammer]

I really don't like the fact that people say that the reason we don't like windows 8 is because "WE ARE AFRAID OF CHANGE" .. uh, no that's not it at all. I love new stuff, I love change, I just don't like an ugly, unintuitive mess.

And why is it unintuitive? Because it's not what you are used to. Anything you aren't used to is going to require - if not outright demand - getting used to and/or a learning curve. However, the anti-ModernUI folks not only have absolutely no interest in learning or getting used to ModernUI or the apps for it (despite the apps themselves being unbiased and largely neutral as far as mouse vs. touch - which can't be said for Win32); that is, in fact, the single most-repeated criticism of ModernUI (it's too different). And for those two reasons (you can't ignore it AND you want no part of anything created in it - for whatever reason), instead you belittle it. It's basically what the fox said about the grapes he couldn't reach - "Ahh, they are likely too sour anyway."

And you wonder why I have compared you to extremists?

[xWhiplash]

And why is it unintuitive? Because it's not what you are used to. Anything you aren't used to is going to require - if not outright demand - getting used to and/or a learning curve. However, the anti-ModernUI folks not only have absolutely no interest in learning or getting used to ModernUI or the apps for it (despite the apps themselves being unbiased and largely neutral as far as mouse vs. touch - which can't be said for Win32); that is, in fact, the single most-repeated criticism of ModernUI (it's too different). And for those two reasons (you can't ignore it AND you want no part of anything created in it - for whatever reason), instead you belittle it. It's basically what the fox said about the grapes he couldn't reach - "Ahh, they are likely too sour anyway."

And you wonder why I have compared you to extremists?

No it is unintuitive because MS decided to hide everything useful. Do you realize how many times I have started typing in the Start Screen while people were watching and they yelled "How the HELL did you bring up search?!". They had no idea you can just type on that screen. There is no Search box like there was with the Start Menu.

When you have a button (Start) at the bottom left of the screen from Windows 95 to Windows 7, and it is not there anymore with 8, people assume you can no longer do that functionality anymore. Several people have said to me that they did not realize they could still go down there and click.

The entire OS is unintuitive. When you hide everything you possibly can, this is what you get. An unintuitive mess. A 10 second tutorial when you first start up the computer does not work. People either are not paying attention, or they forget.

They get to work, use Windows XP or 7 or whatever, then they get back home and forget everything in 8 is now hidden. There are people out there that cannot use two completely separate UIs (Windows XP / 7 at work and 8 at home).

[PGHammer]

No it is unintuitive because MS decided to hide everything useful. Do you realize how many times I have started typing in the Start Screen while people were watching and they yelled "How the HELL did you bring up search?!". They had no idea you can just type on that screen. There is no Search box like there was with the Start Menu.

When you have a button (Start) at the bottom left of the screen from Windows 95 to Windows 7, and it is not there anymore with 8, people assume you can no longer do that functionality anymore. Several people have said to me that they did not realize they could still go down there and click.

The entire OS is unintuitive. When you hide everything you possibly can, this is what you get. An unintuitive mess. A 10 second tutorial when you first start up the computer does not work. People either are not paying attention, or they forget.

They get to work, use Windows XP or 7 or whatever, then they get back home and forget everything in 8 is now hidden. There are people out there that cannot use two completely separate UIs (Windows XP / 7 at work and 8 at home).

And thank you for proving my point. You are used to the Start menu, and see no desire to move away from it. Never mind that it was rather obvious that the Start menu had its chop called in Windows 8 - a large number of you APPARENTLY hoped against hope that Microsoft would instead retract and stick to the safe. The very fact that you saw three PUBLIC (as opposed to leaked) Previews - all utterly without a Start menu - and held on to that forlorn hope makes me really wonder.

I had the same concern you did with the DEVELOPER Preview - I actually used my testing it to see if I could adjust. Adjusting was not all that hard, which is why I was pretty much ready to rock with the Consumer Preview. What in Ned did YOU do while those Previews were out there (and commented on all over Neowin) - twiddle your thumbs?

[xWhiplash]

And thank you for proving my point. You are used to the Start menu, and see no desire to move away from it. Never mind that it was rather obvious that the Start menu had its chop called in Windows 8 - a large number of you APPARENTLY hoped against hope that Microsoft would instead retract and stick to the safe. The very fact that you saw three PUBLIC (as opposed to leaked) Previews - all utterly without a Start menu - and held on to that forlorn hope makes me really wonder.

I had the same concern you did with the DEVELOPER Preview - I actually used my testing it to see if I could adjust. Adjusting was not all that hard, which is why I was pretty much ready to rock with the Consumer Preview. What in Ned did YOU do while those Previews were out there (and commented on all over Neowin) - twiddle your thumbs?

Did you read what I wrote? The only thing I said in regards to the start menu is that the search is intuitive because it has a search box always visible in the start menu vs the start screen. THAT IS IT. My post was about intuitive vs unintuitive. Windows 8 is unintuitive because they hid everything. People do not even know how to search with Windows 8. They knew how in WIndows 7 because there was a search box visible in the start menu.

Hiding things means an unintuitive design.

[PGHammer]

Did you read what I wrote? The only thing I said in regards to the start menu is that the search is intuitive because it has a search box always visible in the start menu vs the start screen. THAT IS IT. My post was about intuitive vs unintuitive. Windows 8 is unintuitive because they hid everything. People do not even know how to search with Windows 8. They knew how in WIndows 7 because there was a search box visible in the start menu.

Hiding things means an unintuitive design.

I DID read what you wrote, and I didn't disagree about it being unintuitive, either. However, I stated what unintuitive means in the classical sense; unintuitive means DIFFERENT - it goes against how things have always been (which is exactly what you yourself said in reference to the Start menu). Anything that is different WILL need to be learned; however, once you learn it, the new method of doing things becomes the new intuitive. If you use 8 at home, and 7 at work, and you are on the computer at work more than at home, of course the *Windows 8 way* will not be intuitive (or may even become counterintuitive), simply because 7 (or older in some businesses or governments) will be there holding you up. Because I use Windows 8/Server 2012 (common UI and UX) on my PC, and only run other operating systems in virtual machines, I don't wind up unlearning how to get around in Windows 8 because I use another OS more often. It makes me a different sort of user, and likely a different sort of outlier.

[spoetnik]

earlier 1 guy responded to me said basicaly "it works both ways"

and that even i have had a jab at people before.

You know what that is fair, i'll give ya that lol

But the key difference i was trying to highlight is the majority of us that are critical about windows 8

are trying to say we have issues with it for how we want to use it and if other people do not that is fine.

Do you guys see what I am saying ?

We got one side that for the most part is saying we're both right and the fans saying oh hell no your all wrong.

BIG difference !

If you like windows 8 fine but don't discredit me because i don't..

I will continue to prove we are BOTH right when the other side continues to shout we're right and YOUR wrong.

That is what i see reading the numerous comments here, peopel get into specific on how to use the OS.

And all it does is make me think of well damn.. duh.. we all use the OS we want in different ways. going back to the start of Windows.

So it amounts to a group of people assuming a lot, such as how we currently use our machines and we SHOULD use our machines.

And what has made Windows popular is what it did for the last 20 years which was.. a lot of accomadation and flexibility and options.

something that was severly retracted by Microsoft on Windows 8's release.

Myself, i customize everything i can get my hands on and i use non standard ways of doing things. I've been using shortcuts long before

most of the kids that bark at me to learn them long before they were aware of them and that is not the point. Screaming random alternatives proves nothing !

I have an OSD i created for myself that i went to pain staking lengths to create and a Microsoft Start Screen has no place in it.

Microsoft just assumed what we ALL wanted on our desktop and jammed it on us hard, they also assumed that we all hated the way it looked before

and decided that what we ALL wanted was different icons and windows, graphics etc.

I gotta laugh because they were dominating the OS market so when your on top and no.1 what is the smartest thing to do ? Change everything ? LOL

Post the end of support time limoit and wait for customers to eventually have to migrate to what you got now ?

[Growled Member]

I often wonder why change for change sake? Microsoft had to know that millions of people would never accept the change. If they didn't they must be off in la la land. If geeks on Neowin by and large hate it, but just imagine what Joe and Suzie normal user feel.

[PGHammer]

I often wonder why change for change sake? Microsoft had to know that millions of people would never accept the change. If they didn't they must be off in la la land. If geeks on Neowin by and large hate it, but just imagine what Joe and Suzie normal user feel.

Growled, you know perfectly WELL why - it was either change OR watch the tablets eat their lunch. While part of the issue (with tablets) is their lower price, it's not the ONLY issue. The very reason that "geeks" as you so piquantly put it hate Windows 8 is because, as much as they want to deny it, they are as order-seeking as any professional and can be as set in their ways as any of them as well. It's not merely even an issue with Windows - not any more; have you taken a look at the Mac forums? The OS X crowd is just as resistant to change as the Windows crowd - if not more so, And don't get me started on Linux distributions. On the one hand, they say they want different; however, when they get it, they reject it because it's TOO different - meanwhile, some of those same critics actually HAVE Android or iOS tablets/smartphones - as different as those are from ANY version of WIndows, I really have to wonder why, if they are so unable to get their heads around ModernUI. Also, the non-geeks, by and large, are NOT as opinionated as the "geek" crowd - they are also not as set in their ways, either. The only real opinionated non-geeks on the subject are those that really want to be geeks and get caught up in the fervor. It was why I asked the question concerning what they did during the various Public Previews of Windows 8; while I can forgive them having nary a clue that the Start menu's run was in trouble earlier, the Developer Preview made it obvious, and the Consumer Preview should have been a klaxon. And you've seen denial, even in geeks, and more so in Windows-based geeks - consider Windows 2000 Professional, for example. Despite how little it changed compared to NT4WS, how hard was it to get geeks to accept? Non-geeks accepted the OS easier than the geeks did - and this is in enterprises. It's not change for change's sake, Growled - hardware itself is changing, including hardware for Windows. One advantage tablets have (over notebooks) is greater portability (especially battery life) - generally, screen size is NOT a tablet's greatest asset. However, the geeks leading the charge against ModernUI may actually own a tablet or even a notebook - however, they see themselves as DESKTOP (the formfactor, believe it or not) PC users first. They have access to their data on desktops, tablets, and phones, and they certainly get the problem of *musical UIs*. However, they still insist on "baby steps" - which the non-geeks may well not give us. it's not the dot-com era anymore - geeks don't drive (or have the influence in) IT as much as we/they used to. There are FAR more non-geeks than geeks - and they have the numbers. Companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google have to listen to them more than us - they plain and simply outnumber us. Also, if you don't give your customers what they want, they will go elsewhere. And because the non-geek customer is the majority (especially outside the developed world), you had better believe that they get a seat at the table. Therefore I think part of it IS "geek denial".

[xWhiplash]

They did not have tomess with the desktop OS though. At least have left the Enterprise edition alone, geez.....Apple is doing this. OS X != iOS. OS X has some features from iOS, but they are not the same. Launchpad is 100% optional.

[Snide]

I haven?t tried Win 8 yet so i cant say yes or no about it, but i do hate that windows becomes more and more graphical, if they cut down on the graphics it could load much faster and better

[Noir Angel]

Growled, you know perfectly WELL why - it was either change OR watch the tablets eat their lunch. While part of the issue (with tablets) is their lower price, it's not the ONLY issue. The very reason that "geeks" as you so piquantly put it hate Windows 8 is because, as much as they want to deny it, they are as order-seeking as any professional and can be as set in their ways as any of them as well. It's not merely even an issue with Windows - not any more; have you taken a look at the Mac forums? The OS X crowd is just as resistant to change as the Windows crowd - if not more so, And don't get me started on Linux distributions. On the one hand, they say they want different; however, when they get it, they reject it because it's TOO different - meanwhile, some of those same critics actually HAVE Android or iOS tablets/smartphones - as different as those are from ANY version of WIndows, I really have to wonder why, if they are so unable to get their heads around ModernUI. Also, the non-geeks, by and large, are NOT as opinionated as the "geek" crowd - they are also not as set in their ways, either. The only real opinionated non-geeks on the subject are those that really want to be geeks and get caught up in the fervor. It was why I asked the question concerning what they did during the various Public Previews of Windows 8; while I can forgive them having nary a clue that the Start menu's run was in trouble earlier, the Developer Preview made it obvious, and the Consumer Preview should have been a klaxon. And you've seen denial, even in geeks, and more so in Windows-based geeks - consider Windows 2000 Professional, for example. Despite how little it changed compared to NT4WS, how hard was it to get geeks to accept? Non-geeks accepted the OS easier than the geeks did - and this is in enterprises. It's not change for change's sake, Growled - hardware itself is changing, including hardware for Windows. One advantage tablets have (over notebooks) is greater portability (especially battery life) - generally, screen size is NOT a tablet's greatest asset. However, the geeks leading the charge against ModernUI may actually own a tablet or even a notebook - however, they see themselves as DESKTOP (the formfactor, believe it or not) PC users first. They have access to their data on desktops, tablets, and phones, and they certainly get the problem of *musical UIs*. However, they still insist on "baby steps" - which the non-geeks may well not give us. it's not the dot-com era anymore - geeks don't drive (or have the influence in) IT as much as we/they used to. There are FAR more non-geeks than geeks - and they have the numbers. Companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google have to listen to them more than us - they plain and simply outnumber us. Also, if you don't give your customers what they want, they will go elsewhere. And because the non-geek customer is the majority (especially outside the developed world), you had better believe that they get a seat at the table. Therefore I think part of it IS "geek denial".

Personally I go with what I see. And what I see is that Apple and Google had the good sense to develop their tablet products individually and Microsoft chose to crap on their desktop users to appease the tinkertoy market. It's dickish moves like this that are making me lose my respect for them to an extent that I am seriously considering shifting to dedicating my time to new things, which is a frustrating position to be in after 12 years as a Microsoft enthusiast. Frankly, your rationalisations do not matter to me they matter to someone else which makes your continued posturing frankly a touch irritating and horribly condescending. It really isn't your place to tell people how valid their concerns are.

[Growled Member]

Growled, you know perfectly WELL why - it was either change OR watch the tablets eat their lunch.

Then why even mess with the desktop? That's not where it's at any more. Microsoft should have released Windows 8 on tablets and like devices and left the desktop alone, or at least provide a desktop version for that platform. It makes no sense to annoy your users. It shows poor management skills.

You are right, I have a certain way that I work using Windows and I am going to continue to work that way. If Microsoft can't provide me what I need, others will.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Growled, you know perfectly WELL why - it was either change OR watch the tablets eat their lunch. While part of the issue (with tablets) is their lower price, it's not the ONLY issue. The very reason that "geeks" as you so piquantly put it hate Windows 8 is because, as much as they want to deny it, they are as order-seeking as any professional and can be as set in their ways as any of them as well. It's not merely even an issue with Windows - not any more; have you taken a look at the Mac forums? The OS X crowd is just as resistant to change as the Windows crowd - if not more so, And don't get me started on Linux distributions. On the one hand, they say they want different; however, when they get it, they reject it because it's TOO different - meanwhile, some of those same critics actually HAVE Android or iOS tablets/smartphones - as different as those are from ANY version of WIndows, I really have to wonder why, if they are so unable to get their heads around ModernUI. Also, the non-geeks, by and large, are NOT as opinionated as the "geek" crowd - they are also not as set in their ways, either. The only real opinionated non-geeks on the subject are those that really want to be geeks and get caught up in the fervor. It was why I asked the question concerning what they did during the various Public Previews of Windows 8; while I can forgive them having nary a clue that the Start menu's run was in trouble earlier, the Developer Preview made it obvious, and the Consumer Preview should have been a klaxon. And you've seen denial, even in geeks, and more so in Windows-based geeks - consider Windows 2000 Professional, for example. Despite how little it changed compared to NT4WS, how hard was it to get geeks to accept? Non-geeks accepted the OS easier than the geeks did - and this is in enterprises. It's not change for change's sake, Growled - hardware itself is changing, including hardware for Windows. One advantage tablets have (over notebooks) is greater portability (especially battery life) - generally, screen size is NOT a tablet's greatest asset. However, the geeks leading the charge against ModernUI may actually own a tablet or even a notebook - however, they see themselves as DESKTOP (the formfactor, believe it or not) PC users first. They have access to their data on desktops, tablets, and phones, and they certainly get the problem of *musical UIs*. However, they still insist on "baby steps" - which the non-geeks may well not give us. it's not the dot-com era anymore - geeks don't drive (or have the influence in) IT as much as we/they used to. There are FAR more non-geeks than geeks - and they have the numbers. Companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google have to listen to them more than us - they plain and simply outnumber us. Also, if you don't give your customers what they want, they will go elsewhere. And because the non-geek customer is the majority (especially outside the developed world), you had better believe that they get a seat at the table. Therefore I think part of it IS "geek denial".

[PGHammer]

Then why even mess with the desktop? That's not where it's at any more. Microsoft should have released Windows 8 on tablets and like devices and left the desktop alone, or at least provide a desktop version for that platform. It makes no sense to annoy your users. It shows poor management skills.

You are right, I have a certain way that I work using Windows and I am going to continue to work that way. If Microsoft can't provide me what I need, others will.

The Start menu is NOT part of the desktop - it never has been. Besides, desktop applications don't even care about it. Users care - however, applications (even desktop applications) could care less.

All the Start menu is, and has ever been, is an application launcher. Period. Not a thing more OR less. Why else are Start8, ClassicShell, etc., so blasted simple?

You know that yourself - and so does everyone else.

I didn't call the clinging to that metric "don't want to move" for nothing - I saw that same sort of thing when Windows 95 launched.

As obvious as the excision of the Start menu is, losing it can be dealt with - unless you see it as something traditional (which is all the stranger considering the tradition of alternate application launchers in Windows - including from, of all people, Stardock).

(Yes - I saw all those references to the Start menu whenever I install desktop applications - I still see them today, in fact. If desktop applications truly cared that the Start menu existed, they would raise a stink or throw up error flags - however, that isn't happening - I have not given up on desktop applications just because I don't have a Start menu any more. I still use them, and still install them. It's a molehill - not even a regulation hill, let alone a mountain.)

[bradsday]

Really, 42 pages of this nonsense and growing. It is a piece of software. No one is forcing you to use it. If you don't like Windows 8, then don't install it. Windows 7 will be supported for many, many more years. Even then, there is always OSX, Linux (in all of its various distributions), Unix (in its distributions), BSD, or one of the hundreds of other alternatives. The point is - Microsoft has put a stake in the ground. This is how they see the future. Whether right or wrong - this is the course they are on and the course they will stay. Sure, there might be minor concessions to placate the masses (i.e. a Start button that launches the Start Screen or boot to desktop option), but by and large, this is it.

Personally, I love Windows 8 - but unless you have a touch screen device, I don't think it is right for most people. This is not about competing with the tablet market, this is about the evolution of personal computing. People want another way of interacting with their devices. Not to chuck the keyboard and mouse completely, but rather to have the option of reaching out to touch the screen when it makes sense to do so - like sizing a picture, map, or webpage. I just bought a new touch screen laptop with Windows 8 and literally fell in love with computers all over again. My only problem now is that I keep touching the monitor of my Windows 7 desktop expecting it to do something.

[Ian W]

Really, 42 pages of this nonsense and growing.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that the posts have virtually nothing to do with the (biased) article by Ed Bott.

[Growled Member]

Personally, I love Windows 8 - but unless you have a touch screen device, I don't think it is right for most people.

I suppose if I had a touch device I might feel differently about Windows 8.

[PGHammer]

I suppose if I had a touch device I might feel differently about Windows 8.

Growled, I don't have a touch device at all. I don't even own a smartphone. I run Android in a VM. Yet I use ModernUI without a quibble.

I know ModernUI apps support mice because that is what I use with them. If a ModernUI app didn't support mice, I wouldn't (in fact couldn't) even try it.

Yes - ModernUI supports touch, and touch is indeed more obvious with Windows 8 than it was with Windows 7. Still, Windows 7 does support touch - however, how noticeable is it?

Even more telling, where are the applications that support touch on Windows 7?

ModernUI is not touch-only - it is, in fact, touch-plus.

ModernUI apps compete with (in fact, they have to compete, and beat) the Win32 equivalents on my desktop at least - and some have, in fact, done so. However, their touch support - or lack of it - has nothing to do with it. In other words, touch-support, for me, is a great big non-issue. I've used Android devices, and iPads (specifically, the iPad 2) as well. I've used other touch-screen hardware as well - in a variety of situations. I've in fact said - more than once - that I prefer keyboards and mice. Android and iOS have no problems supporting keyboards and mice, and that is despite mice not being the default with either, and keyboards are only a third-party option with iOS.

Hence the issue with ModernUI is a user issue.

[MorganX]

ModernUI apps compete with (in fact, they have to compete, and beat) the Win32 equivalents on my desktop at least - and some have, in fact, done so.

Out of curiosity, what Modern UI applications have you found that compete with and beat Win32 counterparts?

[HawkMan]

I think topics got blended. I think they're dead wrong on desktops, but he specifically mentioned laptops and normal people which I assume would be consumers types. And I agree.

Most of these types don't need a PC, and probably wouldn't buy one regardless. But they will buy a much cheaper tablet. Tablets will and are killing laptop sales to these types of people.

If someone wanted to assert that tablets and phones are eating in to laptop sales that seems plausible. I know the Surface Pro will/has, but not because it's a tablet, because it's a full blown pc in a tablet form factor.

As I said before, "desktops" as such are excempt form the very fact they are pretty much consumer extinct already. Normal people outside of the rare old dude who thinks he needs a tower don't buy desktops.

the people who use desktops/towers today are gamers or ppeople who use it as a workstation. they are special purpose devices. they are not your average user.

That was my point.

Laptops killed the desktop. Gamers and worksations still use them

Pad are killing the laptops. mobile gamers and business and power users will still use them.

in the future, we'll see somethign kill the pad as well, putting the pad back int he spot of novelty sofa surfing device. what this device is, who knows at this time...

[MorganX]

As I said before, "desktops" as such are excempt form the very fact they are pretty much consumer extinct already. Normal people outside of the rare old dude who thinks he needs a tower don't buy desktops.

the people who use desktops/towers today are gamers or ppeople who use it as a workstation. they are special purpose devices. they are not your average user.

The average gamer and enthusiast is in their mid-30s. Same as the average person buying Surface's. Considering Steam usage is one of the growth numbers used to bolster Windows 8, these average users are not insignificant.

Towers haven't been popular for a few years outside of hardcore enthusiasts. SFF, USFF, & loaded laptops supplanted them years ago.

[Growled Member]

Hence the issue with ModernUI is a user issue.

Yep, I agree. It's a big issue with me because I don't like it at all. Based on sales I think many people feel just like me.

[Noir Angel]

Complete BS. People still buy desktops.

[Mr. Gibs]

Complete BS. People still buy desktops.

Not as much as they used to. Way back in 2008 laptops overtook desktops, and its expected by 2015 that tablets will overtake desktops too.

Steam hardware stats also show how slow people are to upgrade their desktops / laptops nowadays too (no real demand):

Intel HD Graphics 3000 3.68% -0.09%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti 2.85% -0.01%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 550 Ti 2.52% +0.11%

Intel HD Graphics 4000 1.97% +0.18%

Intel HD Graphics 2000 1.96% 0.00%

Intel HD Graphics 1.86% -0.12%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 1.72% -0.12%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 1.66% +0.03%

ATI Radeon HD 5770 1.61% -0.06%

NVIDIA GeForce 9600 1.57% +0.04%

NVIDIA GeForce GTS 450 1.57% +0.06%

NVIDIA GeForce 9800 1.56% -0.01%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670 1.43% +0.10%

I mean the 600 series released a year or so ago and according to steam more people have ****ing 9600s and 9800s than it? The most popular CPU is a dual core (though quad core isn't too far behind, about 5% difference). 35% have less than 4gb RAM (even though it's dirt ass cheap nowadays).

There was a time when new games would push the limits of hardware, but that time has gone. Unless you're the minority with a massive resolution and want 32x AA, chances are your good ole i5 and nvidia 400/500 series card is going to last you for a bit.