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Growled
  • Member
Posted

Half of those don't even have desktop counterparts.

But a web site put in a wrapper ain't really an app to me.

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PGHammer
Posted

The base isn't diminishing, just new sales. That's important for MS. Millions upgrade and buy new apps for features, capabilities, etc. Many build their own PCs. Microcenter is actually flourishing here.

Windows 7 generated new apps that ran better or were more capable for Windows 7. Designed for Windows 7 did well. There's no such thing for Windows 8. It's taking way too long. Not a single AAA game for Windows 8 Modern UI has been announced, nor serious application. So if all the apps and games run under Win 32, there is absolutely no need to upgrade to Windows 8 or purchase a new PC for new capabilities with Windows 8.

That is because - except for ModernUI apps - you don't need to do anything different than you did designwise for Windows 7. At all.

ModernUI needs an installed software base - and you are only starting to get there. It hasn't been a year yet, and the economy is still poor-to-lousy almost planetwide. The first true AAA ModernUI apps and games are indeed showing up; in fact, a lot of them cost nothing. Yes; there's a lot of crap on the Windows 8 or RT app stores (the same is, however, that is also true of Google Play and the other Android-based app stores, and of even the iOS and Mac App Stores - lick-and-promise developers are everywhere). However, the doom-and-gloomers don't want to allow ModernUI time (for fear it could become like 9x did, and eventually eat the installed base due to large amounts of compatibility with the installed base - of both applications AND hardware); what are they scared of?

9x was feared (even in the days of Windows 95). Windows 2000 (the second major change to NT - in fact, it changed more with Windows 2000 than with NT4) was ALSO feared, even though 2000 brought changes we now take for granted.

The desktop (and desktop applications) aren't going anywhere - Windows 8's superb backward-compatibility with the Win32 application base (better than that of Windows 7, oddly enough) is only more proof of that.

However, a LOT of the user community has very much gotten complacent - and the bad economy is a big part of it. Hating change in how we do things has become *fashionable* among the punditocracy - and it doesn't matter WHAT change is being discussed.

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contextfree
Posted

I agree with second paragraph. First paragraph, no, not for me. Maximized window, requires less precision and targeting. App switch requires more precision, plus a wait, then a target on appropriate thumbnail, even assuming it's the only one or you lose the bar. Same thing if you minimize as opposed to close. I've been using for 6 months now, a lot, and App switch bar will never become a reflex action. It's really nice on a tablet though, seriously, well designed. It's perfect for that.

???

I'm talking about going back to the previous app, not some other app. To do that you just click in the corner, no need to wait for anything or target anything. It is 100% a reflex action for me, I don't even look at my mouse pointer or the thumbnail when I do it (same with bringing up the clock). The app switch bar / recent apps list is a separate issue, which I agree is a bit problematic, not because of waiting or targeting issues (there's really no significant waiting there either), but because the apps aren't in a consistent location so you need to waste time scanning the list, then there's a chance the app you want won't even be there and you'll have to go to Start anyway. It's actually sometimes faster to just use Start to switch.

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adrynalyne
Posted

Half of those don't even have desktop counterparts.

Twitter, Skype, OneNote, EverNote, Kindle, SkyDrive, DropBox, Lync, Nokia Music, VLC, CNN, NBC News, NY TImes, ABC News, Fresh Paint, Wikipedia, Netflix, Hulu, Firefox, and Chrome.

Desktop counterparts available:

Skype: Check

OneNote: Check

EverNote: Check

Kindle: Check

Skydrive: Check

Dropbox: Check

Lync: Check

VLC: Check

Firefox: Check

Chrome: Check

Wrappers for websites:

CNN

NBC News

NY Times

ABC News

Wikipedia

Left over:

Netflix

Hulu

Nokia Music

Three Windows 8 apps that aren't wrappers (or if they are, they are well done). Of the last three, at least two of them are accessible via browser.

So what does that leave us with? Nokia Music? Hold the phone! I gotta have Windows 8 now!

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MorganX
Posted

Also, MorganX meant SERIOUS APPLICATION. Meaning where is the full Photoshop (not photoshop elements-like, the FULL Photoshop) app? Where is the 3DS Max app? Those are SERIOUS apps. What you listed are not serious productive apps.

I just decided there was nothing productive to be gained from even responding.

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adrynalyne
Posted

I just decided there was nothing productive to be gained from even responding.

I like how he mentioned that no AAA titles will come out because Steam and Origin have it on lock down ;)

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Dot Matrix
Posted

Twitter, Skype, OneNote, EverNote, Kindle, SkyDrive, DropBox, Lync, Nokia Music, VLC, CNN, NBC News, NY TImes, ABC News, Fresh Paint, Wikipedia, Netflix, Hulu, Firefox, and Chrome.

Desktop counterparts available:

Skype: Check

OneNote: Check

EverNote: Check

Kindle: Check

Skydrive: Check

Dropbox: Check

Lync: Check

VLC: Check

Firefox: Check

Chrome: Check

Wrappers for websites:

CNN

NBC News

NY Times

ABC News

Wikipedia

Left over:

Netflix

Hulu

Nokia Music

Three Windows 8 apps that aren't wrappers (or if they are, they are well done). Of the last three, at least two of them are accessible via browser.

So what does that leave us with? Nokia Music? Hold the phone! I gotta have Windows 8 now!

It still proves MorganX wrong when he says there aren't any apps for Windows 8. Netflix is a pretty big strike against Windows 7, Also, STOP THE PRESSES! Photoshop!? Photoshop still runs on Windows 8, and is a highly popular app for many Surface Prop owners. Photoshop is also a fairly niche app, not used by many outside the graphics design industry. These "serious" apps have no impact on ordinary consumers, who seem content with buying iPads and iPhones that *don't* feature full fledged Photoshop apps. The PC market is still dying despite these apps.

Sorry.

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adrynalyne
Posted

It still proves MorganX wrong when he says there aren't any apps for Windows 8. Netflix is a pretty big strike against Windows 7, Also, STOP THE PRESSES! Photoshop!? Photoshop still runs on Windows 8, and is a highly popular app for many Surface Prop owners. Photoshop is also a fairly niche app, not used by many outside the graphics design industry. These "serious" apps have no impact on ordinary consumers, who seem content with buying iPads and iPhones that *don't* feature full fledged Photoshop apps.

Sorry.

So what you are saying is, Windows 8 is not an OS for professionals?

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Dot Matrix
Posted

So what you are saying is, Windows 8 is not an OS for professionals?

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

Did you miss the part where I said Photoshop runs just fine on the Surface Pro? Selective reading?

Also, the creator of the Penny Arcade disagrees: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/02/22/the-ms-surface-pro

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Order_66
Posted

Two sources that make my head hurt. SJVN, and Fox News. Putting them together now makes me feel like my head is about to explode.

Certainly too much fact, logic and reason will not make your head explode Dot.

/s

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MorganX
Posted

It still proves MorganX wrong when he says there aren't any apps for Windows 8.

Sorry.

"You" will never prove me wrong:

Not a single AAA game for Windows 8 Modern UI has been announced, nor serious application. Is what I said, and you have not listed a serious application. Netflix is a web app, not a serious application, it is actually much more flexible in a web browser in the Desktop Environment. One note and Lync are shell's of their Desktop counterparts, as such they are applets for tablets, not even full blown applets of their own serious app counterparts. The Lync Win 32 client which runs on Windows 7 as well makes the applet look silly. TBH, the iOS Lync applet is more of a serious application and shames the Modern UI client. None of those are serious applications, they are applets with the exception of the web browsers which there are already 2 that ship with Windows 8. VLC has potential but remains to be seen. Considering Windows 8 ships with a Desktop and Modern UI media app this is insignificant. It only matters because the Xbox video Modern UI app is so lacking. The fact that you have to present phone and tablet apps as serious applications, wrappers to web apps, and crippled tablet counterparts to the serious Win 32 apps proves I am right.

You promptly ducked and covered from the whole AAA games for Modern UI/WinRT. Clearly Modern UI is at this time, no threat whatsoever to Win32 and there is not much value to the Modern UI on a desktop at all.

At this point, even if you somehow did prove me wrong, I'd have to deny it anyway because you're so ridiculous with your reality distortion and evangelism.

PGHammer provide a much more sound analysis of the state of Modern UI apps.

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MorganX
Posted

Did you miss the part where I said Photoshop runs just fine on the Surface Pro? Selective reading?

Also, the creator of the Penny Arcade disagrees: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/02/22/the-ms-surface-pro

Photoshop is a Win32 app and runs just fine under the OS it was release under Windows 7. There is no comparable app for the Modern UI, and none announced. There is no reason at this time, to have the Modern UI on the desktop at all, other than Microsoft's. And it will remain that way until serious apps and games (over half don't even support gamepads on the desktop because they are designed for tablets) are produced for the Modern UI (WinRT). At this point, they will have to run full screen, so it's unlikely many are being planned.

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HawkMan
Posted

Here's a few facts

- People aren't not buying computers because of windows 8, it's the economy.

- in fact people who do buy computers, want the latest windows 8.

- The few who don't want it (the same peopel who didn't want 7 because it was different, or vista because it was different and so on) are easily converted by demoing windows 8

- Tablets are the future. for 90% of the people who buy compputers from me today. they could do everything they need with a tablet. except, in Norway you "currently" need Java to log onto your bank and other services that use our BankID e-id system.

- Once the new non Java based BankID is in place, I will turn away a lot less tablet users who just need a computer to surf, e-mail and bank. These peopel want window.

- For professionals who needs computers for graphics and coding and other work, and gamers, Windows 8 is a better option. Is it has the same UI across their workstation and tablet.

- Windows 8 works great as a launcher for desktop only users, like me. it's more efficient than the start menu and certainly more organized.

- Even if you don't use windows 8 apps. the start screen still allows you at a glance info on a lot of things, like mail, news, weather, messages+++, and some of the modern apps do actually work very well in modern, like netflix and skype and a lot of the simple fun time wasting games.

- And no modern/the start screen was not designed for touch. it was designed to work with touch, but a lot of it actually works BETTER with a mouse.

The world is changing, change with it or be left behind, and for professionals, the desktop isn't going anywhere, it's just got a new launcher that's unified across devices and guess what it works just fine, doesn't hamper work flow and can in fact improve it. But then a professional would have all his important work apps pinned to the superbar anyway. So dont' give me that stupid "jarring" argument.

Also for the guy who said you needed to close modern apps to be efficient at switching apps. Since you apparently haven't used the Slide from the left modern task switching, I suggest you read up on it and the intelligent behavior of it. it would in fact bring you right to the app "behind" it. and if you do it again, after waiting a few seconds, it'll bring you back to the app you where on before.

Photoshop is a Win32 app and runs just fine under the OS it was release under Windows 7. There is no comparable app for the Modern UI, and none announced. There is no reason at this time, to have the Modern UI on the desktop at all, other than Microsoft's. And it will remain that way until serious apps and games (over half don't even support gamepads on the desktop because they are designed for tablets) are produced for the Modern UI (WinRT). At this point, they will have to run full screen, so it's unlikely many are being planned.

There's no reason not to have a modern launcher, BUT there are reason TO have it. unified UI, access to modern apps for those that want it. a moder efficient and organized launcher than the deprecated start menu.

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Nick H.
  • Supervisor
Posted

And yet another thread with the same players making the same points...

Regardless of how Windows 8 performs in the market, Microsoft will not fall. They have other departments to help themselves out. It would be silly, but a worst case scenario would be dropping the PC market completely and focusing solely on tablets. We can joke about how they've already attempted a similar strategy with Windows 8, but if they really think it's the way of the future then they may as well try it and leave the PC market for Mac and Linux. Who knows, Microsoft dropping the PC market might bring out something new in terms of a PC OS.

Just my 2 cents.

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Alwaysonacoffebreak
Posted

"Not a single AAA game for Windows 8 Modern UI has been announced"

How many AAA games do we have for the start menu in W7? I think I've missed something. :/

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Seketh
Posted

"Not a single AAA game for Windows 8 Modern UI has been announced"

How many AAA games do we have for the start menu in W7? I think I've missed something. :/

2013 was the year I realized the majority of people on the internet are stupid. I mean, people on the internet chose EA as the worst company of the year in America. Not Exxon Mobile, not the Bank of America, EA.

The constant trolling of Windows 8 really puts people away from even trying it, I've got friends who don't even try it themselves because they read on the internet that "Windows 8 is really bad, kinda like Vista". Right now, we're on a snowball effect. Windows 8 was unfairly critized, by many, many tech websites, -which later changed their opinion-, but the damage is already done. A summary of the logic behind Windows 8 sales:

2012 (since the Consumer Preview): Windows 8 sucks, don't buy it, you have to learn new things!

Early 2013: Windows 8 doesn't sell because it sucks, even though we made editorials stating that Windows 8 doesn't in fact, suck. We were just stupid and didn't want things to change.

And honestly, seeing new pc shipments as any kind of indicator that Windows 8 is selling or not is also stupid. I'm running a 2011 HP Touchsmart Tm2 with Windows 8 and I don't plan buying a new PC anytime soon.

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seta-san
Posted

"Not a single AAA game for Windows 8 Modern UI has been announced"

How many AAA games do we have for the start menu in W7? I think I've missed something. :/

microsoft has to do this. i don't see other companies doing it. It would be interesting though. Games are the only thing that i approve of having a single program take over the whole screen. Maybe blizzard could port the wow client as a demo or something...

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MorganX
Posted

"Not a single AAA game for Windows 8 Modern UI has been announced"

How many AAA games do we have for the start menu in W7? I think I've missed something. :/

I'm not sure what that has to do with the lack of games, which have always driven new OS adoptions in my memory as well as high end PC and graphic card sales (they still do that for W32)?

Me personally, I bought Start8 and called it a day. It's good to see MS is fixing Modern UI Search which was my major need for the Start Menu.

What I'm missing is why people who have no problems with the Modern UI implementation, don't address the content of the article the OP posted. They want to dredge up the Start Menu, or discredit the author, but no one can actually address the content, which resonates with many. That's quite telling isn't it?

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rwx
Posted

I am one of those users that truly dislike Windows 8 but my reasons go a step beyond everybody's complains (while also including everybody's complains).

It seems like they are really trying to make it harder and harder to run unsigned drivers. This: http://www.ngohq.com/?page=dseo I could not get it to work on Windows 8 (may be it's me) but I have no issues making it work on Windows 7 64-bit. Why do I need that you ask? Well, my UFD is partitioned and I have multiple Linux distros installed (Live versions with extracted ISOs). In order to partition my UFD, I need to install a filter driver and this worked fine with Windows 7 32-bit but not well with 64-bit which made me use the tool in the link above. I tried it on Windows 8 and I couldn't get it work. You see, I am a technical person, I'd like to play around like this, partition my usb drive, use WinBuilder, multi-boot UFD, rescue systems etc.

So to sum it up, I hate Windows 8 Modern UI, I hate the lack of the original Start button and I also don't like how I can no longer use the tool above. Sure, I can have two Windows versions installed but why waste precious super fast SSD and precious time for this? I don't mind (but I don't like it) the flat look of the desktop (it reminds me on Whistler which I like better) but I like Windows 7 Aero the best.

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MorganX
Posted

microsoft has to do this. i don't see other companies doing it.

+1

In the past, that's exactly what Microsoft would do, through their own studios, or through heavy incentives/assistance to others. This makes me believe MS actually has no intention of Modern UI replacing the Desktop Environment for enterprise and production computing. They truly are trying to leverage their desktop dominance into Tablet/Phone success and simply made very, very bad decisions on precisely how to do that. The nature of the fixes leaked in Blue supports that. I don't have a problem with that, they're just moving kind of slow.

If they do intend to eventually replace the Desktop Environment with WinRT, they need to address the application/games for WinRT (ModernUI) sooner rather than later IMO. The current state of things would support that.

It should not be lost that the Surface Pro is really the only one generating a lot of buzz and it's biggest draw is that it's a PC that runs Win 32 apps.

>>Maybe blizzard could port the wow client as a demo or something... <<

Start at home. Maybe Microsoft Studios could port it's XBLA titles? A Majority of the thumb games available, don't even support gamepads. They are for tablets, period. So why are they even on the desktop? Endless running games, tablet/phone, period.

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BajiRav
Posted

Certainly too much fact, logic and reason will not make your head explode Dot.

/s

SJVN + Logic is a definition of oxymoron.

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MorganX
Posted

It seems like they are really trying to make it harder and harder to run unsigned drivers.

This is one complaint I can't support. I know it's causing you issues, but in the end, I think this is a good thing. I could support the position that MS makes it to hard to qualify drivers, or too expensive if that were the case, but making it harder to run unsigned drivers = good thing for the platform. :/

And yet another thread with the same players making the same points...

Regardless of how Windows 8 performs in the market, Microsoft will not fall. They have other departments to help themselves out. Who knows, Microsoft dropping the PC market

Those other departments, despite carefully crafted financial statements, cannot support Microsoft. Windows & Office still make Microsoft what/who it is.

The latter would really be the end of Microsoft. Give up all those EA agreements? Office and ecals for the client app access to the various server products are the big revenue generators. Windows OS and Server licensing trail far behind as far as the lucrative EAs go.

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rwx
Posted

This is one complaint I can't support. I know it's causing you issues, but in the end, I think this is a good thing. I could support the position that MS makes it to hard to qualify drivers, or too expensive if that were the case, but making it harder to run unsigned drivers = good thing for the platform. :/

Why is that? Specify your reasons please. I will specify mine to support my reasons.

It gives us jobs making our life easier to fix other systems, getting rid of viruses and spyware with bootable flash drives. Non-technical users don't know how to do that so what harm will it cause really? It seems like they are dumbing down the platform to such an extent, you can't do anything except run Windows and that's it. One OS, one platform.

Edit: Ok so you can use a portable hard drive (fixed disk vs removable) but why carry a mini brick with you when you can have a USB flash drive?

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HawkMan
Posted

What I'm missing is why people who have no problems with the Modern UI implementation, don't address the content of the article the OP posted. They want to dredge up the Start Menu, or discredit the author, but no one can actually address the content, which resonates with many. That's quite telling isn't it?

I did adress it, problem is there isn't really much to adress. He's merely blaming low sales on windows 8 without looking at the rest of the world.

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MorganX
Posted

There's no reason not to have a modern launcher, BUT there are reason TO have it. unified UI, access to modern apps for those that want it. a moder efficient and organized launcher than the deprecated start menu.

Do we not expect more from the Modern UI than that? The problem isn't the Modern UI, it is how it is implemented, and no clear need for it.

For the intrusiveness and the attention it requires, it needs to be more than that on the desktop I think. Perhaps after blue, with more snap views, someone will risk making serious applications for it. The lack of drag and drop, how context menus are handled, the MDI limitations, will affect that. Where's the Modern UI app showcase?

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