[OFFICIAL] Windows 10 Insider Program

[theyarecomingforyou]

I still remember my confusion between Galaxy S and Galaxy Ace on a phone call - not to mention Galaxy Y, Duo, Grand, Note, Tab etc.

Don't get me wrong, Samsung has completely lost the plot when it comes to all the variants but at least you can figure out the S and Note ranges (the biggest sellers) - with Lumia you can't even do that. Microsoft, like Samsung, really needs to cut back on all the crazy models and variants and maintain an easy to understand line-up.

 

If a tech enthusiast can't tell you which is the best Lumia model to get then the average consumer stands no chance.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

In other words, you didn't have issues with the then-existing UI feeling kludged and clunky (from XP to 7) with all the patches and add-ons?

 

Part of my issue with the original Start menu was that clunky and kludged feeling with all the various patches and add-ons - worse, they did NOT work together uniformly.  Like you, I'm a keyboard+mouse user (no touch support whatever), so that definitely was NOT it.  The difference between us is that you needed that obvious bias toward mice (which I have nothing against - I even pointed out that some users DID need that); the only real difference is that despite my being a keyboard+mouse user, I'm not overly biased that way.

 

Another issue is that I don't have a desktop resolution taller than 1080p - mine is "exactly" 1080p.  (Due to my astigmatism, taller than 1080p is not practical - and it won't ever be practical as long as said astigmatism is not correctable by surgical means.)

 

Lastly, the very fact that a third party DID manage to bring it back should have enabled Microsoft to leave things as they were with 8.x - why the insistence that Microsoft throw THIS third-party developer (and all the others) under the bus?  Despite that I specifically didn't need THIS third-party utility, third-party utilities - in any OS - are there to fulfill needs of those that use them - therefore, being against them makes absolutely no sense.  It would be the same if Google banned third-party Web browsers from Android (or Apple were to do the same with iOS or OS X).

 

Have I explained myself sufficiently?

 

I think so... Basically for me it's just give us a choice and no harm done. I have no issues with people preferring the start screen.

 

The start menu is iconic though, it's not like it's been around a few years and needed changing. Desktop computers whether windows/mac or linux have had some variant of the start menu for years. It works, and many people enjoy using it on a desktop PC, so if MS want to please the masses just give choice. My point about startisback is it cannot be difficult for MS to give this choice, so where's the downside to doing so?

[indospot Veteran]

I'm confident Microsoft  will come up with a good flagship phone. They're improving their low-end strategy a lot, and I don't think it's crazy to assume they will improve the high-end too. The 930's major mistake was the lack of Glance. I don't particularly care for it (I don't use it on my phone), but the "definition" (do not take this literally, please) of a flagship is that it should use all features of the OS, and the 930 didn't. I think that was kinda ridiculous. Not to mention, by the time the 930 came out, both the Samsung Galaxy S5 and the HTC One M8 had the Qualcomm Snapdragon 801, and the 930 stuck with the 800. Not a major difference, but still.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

I'm confident Microsoft  will come up with a good flagship phone. They're improving their low-end strategy a lot, and I don't think it's crazy to assume they will improve the high-end too. The 930's major mistake was the lack of Glance. I don't particularly care for it (I don't use it on my phone), but the "definition" (do not take this literally, please) of a flagship is that it should use all features of the OS, and the 930 didn't. I think that was kinda ridiculous. Not to mention, by the time the 930 came out, both the Samsung Galaxy S5 and the HTC One M8 had the Qualcomm Snapdragon 801, and the 930 stuck with the 800. Not a major difference, but still.

 

I didn't think that Glance is on OS feature.  Agree though, if it is there was no excuse not to include it.

[indospot Veteran]

I didn't think that Glance is on OS feature.  Agree though, if it is there was no excuse not to include it.

Even if it isn't part of the OS itself, it's part of Lumia. So my point still stands.

[HawkMan]

930 hardware(screen) didn't support glance, quite basic really.

[indospot Veteran]

930 hardware(screen) didn't support glance, quite basic really.

No one said that wasn't true.

[PGHammer]

I think so... Basically for me it's just give us a choice and no harm done. I have no issues with people preferring the start screen.

 

The start menu is iconic though, it's not like it's been around a few years and needed changing. Desktop computers whether windows/mac or linux have had some variant of the start menu for years. It works, and many people enjoy using it on a desktop PC, so if MS want to please the masses just give choice. My point about startisback is it cannot be difficult for MS to give this choice, so where's the downside to doing so?

Iconic - but not perfect.

 

Traditional for tradition's sake is just as wrong as change for change's sake - however, try telling those in favor of tradition that.

 

Mini-Start in Windows 10 is NOT the original Start menu - in fact, it has some nicer features than the original.  Also, it IS more seamless than the original one was.

 

Lastly, unlike the original, it doesn't feel like a kludge.

 

(As I said before, part of my problem with the original Start menu was that it felt kludgy and disjointed.)

 

My issue with bringing it back is that it stomps all over the replacements - including StartIsBack.  Though I don't use it, I don't wish them ill, either - why throw the third parties under the bus?

[indospot Veteran]

My issue with bringing it back is that it stomps all over the replacements - including StartIsBack.  Though I don't use it, I don't wish them ill, either - why throw the third parties under the bus?

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Microsoft doesn't have to hold back from doing anything just so that third-parties can make up for what they're lacking. The more Microsoft can do on their own, the better. Then third-parties can focus on something more useful.

[onewarmslime]

Traditional for tradition's sake is just as wrong as change for change's sake - however, try telling those in favor of tradition that.

 

It's not just tradition for tradition's sake. I've been using W8 for half a year and still, clicking an icon on the taskbar to open up file explorer and then opening my documents from there seems completely unnatural compared to clicking start + Documents...

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

Microsoft should just remake the 3310 for todays world. Same indestructability, but touch enabled, and put snake on it with updated 3d graphics. 
It would sell like hotcakes as the 3310 is still the best phone to be made. 
BUT getting back to the topic of Windows Tech Preview... will mods be making a new thread called Windows Consumer Preview tomorrow?

It's not just tradition for tradition's sake. I've been using W8 for half a year and still, clicking an icon on the taskbar to open up file explorer and then opening my documents from there seems completely unnatural compared to clicking start + Documents...

Totally agree. That's why Microsoft is doing all that it can to distance itself from Windows 8. Its the ME/Vista of Windows. Only 2 people in the universe seem to love its flaws: O'Donnel and Dot Matrix. 

[+Fahim S. MVC]

It's not just tradition for tradition's sake. I've been using W8 for half a year and still, clicking an icon on the taskbar to open up file explorer and then opening my documents from there seems completely unnatural compared to clicking start + Documents...

I find this comment particularly funny as the first thing I've done with every Windows installation since XP is switch off any file system related shortcuts from the start menu/screen. Mainly because navigation into the file structure at specific point (and not at a single point always) always seemed very unnatural to me. Horses for courses I guess.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Microsoft doesn't have to hold back from doing anything just so that third-parties can make up for what they're lacking. The more Microsoft can do on their own, the better. Then third-parties can focus on something more useful.

Agree with this. Microsoft has been borrowing good ideas from third parties forever. If they hadn't we'd still be using Windows Classic.

Microsoft should just remake the 3310 for todays world. Same indestructability, but touch enabled, and put snake on it with updated 3d graphics.

It would sell like hotcakes as the 3310 is still the best phone to be made.

BUT getting back to the topic of Windows Tech Preview... will mods be making a new thread called Windows Consumer Preview tomorrow?

Totally agree. That's why Microsoft is doing all that it can to distance itself from Windows 8. Its the ME/Vista of Windows. Only 2 people in the universe seem to love its flaws: O'Donnel and Dot Matrix.

More than two, my friend. I think it is a great operating system also and am a little saddened by the change 10 is going through with regards to the start screen (windowed modern apps are a welcome change though). I am hoping Continuity will give me a better experience than the start menu which only becomes useful when expanded to take the whole screen.

[PGHammer]

It's not just tradition for tradition's sake. I've been using W8 for half a year and still, clicking an icon on the taskbar to open up file explorer and then opening my documents from there seems completely unnatural compared to clicking start + Documents...

And what was your first version of Windows?

 

I predate the Start menu - in fact, I predate Windows (and the GUI) altogether when it comes to computing - therefore, I know what it's like to NOT have a mouse.  I've also had mice fail - therefore, I've had to work around not having a (working) mouse.

If all you have ever known is mouse+keyboard (with the mouse being your primary method of navigation), then it's understandable that you would resent losing ANY favor (I've said as much many times - in and out of this thread).

 

Further (despite all the accusations that all of us that are fine without a Start menu are touch-screen users), I don't have a touch-screen on either my desktop OR my notebook - it's keyboard+mouse on my desktop, and keyboard+trackpad on my notebook.  (The very reason I don't use a mouse on my notebook is because of Windows 10 Technical Preview having better trackpad support than any previous version of Windows - the shocking part is that this same notebook originally came with Windows Vista.)

 

For me, touch support is utterly irrelevant (for the quite sensible and SANE reason that I don't have any).  Yet I have no issues at all with ModernUI - and without a third-party bringback (this is in Windows 8.1 - AND Server 2012R2).  In other words, it's NOT all about touch - if it were, then keyboard+mouse users couldn't adapt at all.  (Yet they have.)

 

I have nothing against personal preference - however, now that I'm out from under the bus, I refuse to go BACK under it, and especially to please those that are unwilling (not unable) to move - after all, as you have been trying to tell us, why should we have to?

[PGHammer]

Microsoft should just remake the 3310 for todays world. Same indestructability, but touch enabled, and put snake on it with updated 3d graphics. 

It would sell like hotcakes as the 3310 is still the best phone to be made. 

BUT getting back to the topic of Windows Tech Preview... will mods be making a new thread called Windows Consumer Preview tomorrow?

Totally agree. That's why Microsoft is doing all that it can to distance itself from Windows 8. Its the ME/Vista of Windows. Only 2 people in the universe seem to love its flaws: O'Donnel and Dot Matrix. 

Then explain my own posts.

 

The problem is, you can't - because I'm a keyboard+mouse user that dares to disparage the original Start menu - and despite NOT having touch support.

 

I disparaged the original Start menu because of all the cruft that came from patch after update - which made the original Start menu a clunky kludgy mess.

 

The UI needed a reset - which ModernUI provided.

 

All that was missing was the Start menu.

 

And despite that, I found all three previews of Windows 8 (Developer, Consumer, and Release) quite usable.  I took all my applications with me.  I took all my GAMES with me.  Three third-party utilities got mooted (by features in the OS core).

 

And therein was the problem - I was a keyboard+mouse user that did NOT miss the Start menu.  (Basically, so much for the bill of goods you have been trying to sell that ModernUI was "all about touch".)

 

Dot and DConnell were easy to pigeonhole - I'm not.

 

If anything, I was a bigger skeptic than most of you were - I had a ton of doubt that I could adjust to a Windows sans Start menu.

 

I was wrong - and I did my mea culpa in the threads for each Preview version.

 

Therefore, where do you and I differ, since touch is NOT it? (Remember, like you, I don't have any.)

[MorganX]

And therein was the problem - I was a keyboard+mouse user that did NOT miss the Start menu.  (Basically, so much for the bill of goods you have been trying to sell that ModernUI was "all about touch".)

 

Would you be willing to go as far as, Microsoft's initial implementation of the ModernUI was all about touch?

[libertas83]

Would you be willing to go as far as, Microsoft's initial implementation of the ModernUI was all about touch?

 

 

More accurately, ModernUI was more about a small form factor and adding touch as a first class input device. That is why ModernUI is full screen because that works better on small form factors with snapping modes. Gestures and touch make it easier in that form, but do not replace mouse or keyboard inputs.

[Ian W]

Lastly, the very fact that a third party DID manage to bring it back should have enabled Microsoft to leave things as they were with 8.x - why the insistence that Microsoft throw THIS third-party developer (and all the others) under the bus?

Once again I don't see how Microsoft is throwing any developer under the bus by reinstating a Start menu into Windows. Recall that one of the primary purposes of Classic Shell was to reinstate the classic Start menu in Windows 7 when the operating system was a new release. Classic Shell proves that the Windows 7 Start menu did not, and does not, prevent users from, well, using alternatives.

No one is forced to use the Windows 10 Start menu. Its addition does not prevent users from using alternatives, such as Classic Shell, if they desire. Therefore, no developers were harmed in the making of this software. There is currently (and thankfully) the option to use the Start screen as well.

Despite that I specifically didn't need THIS third-party utility, third-party utilities - in any OS - are there to fulfill needs of those that use them - therefore, being against them makes absolutely no sense.

According to this logic, Microsoft is against third-party backup solutions, disk defragmentation software, e-mail clients, maintenance utilities, media players, parental controls, photo manipulation software, and text editors because the company's operating system includes these features "in the box." One only has to look at the amount of software vendors and the amount of software developed for the Windows platform to determine that this is not the case.

Note that some of the features that Microsoft provides, such as parental controls, are designed so that third-parties can augment their capabilities or replace them completely. That's very gracious for a company that supposedly acts against third-party utilities.

It would be the same if Google banned third-party Web browsers from Android (or Apple were to do the same with iOS or OS X).

No it most certainly would not be the same. Do you see Microsoft prohibiting the installation of third-party anti-malware products, for example, just because its operating system ships with Windows Defender?

[spaceelf]

Only 2 people in the universe seem to love its flaws: O'Donnel and Dot Matrix. 

And many of us don't see any flaws to love...they just love the OS.

[onewarmslime]

Quote

And what was your first version of Windows?

 

I predate the Start menu - in fact, I predate Windows (and the GUI) altogether when it comes to computing - therefore, I know what it's like to NOT have a mouse.  I've also had mice fail - therefore, I've had to work around not having a (working) mouse.

If all you have ever known is mouse+keyboard (with the mouse being your primary method of navigation), then it's understandable that you would resent losing ANY favor (I've said as much many times - in and out of this thread).

 

uhm, okay. congratulations.  Are you expecting applause just because you've been using computers longer? Does that make my opinion less valid? My first Windows was windows 98 and of course I used a mouse and a keyboard. When the mouse failed I used another mouse. Big deal.I fail to see the relevance to the start menu vs start screen debate since in both Vista/7 and 8 you still need a mouse to navigate. Unless you're saying MS should drop Windows and make a new DOS?

Not trying to be aggressive or anything, but all I read in your posts (and Dot Matrix's) is "I, I , I". You've got to understand that it's not just about you. I'm not saying Microsoft should remove ModernUI and/or the start screen altogether. I'm saying we whould have an option not to use it, and be able to use your computers the way we have for the past 20 years instead.

Like, sure, if you remove steering wheels from cars and replace them with dualshock controllers, some people might like it. Does that mean it's reasonable to screw everyone else over?

[HawkMan]

Actually you can navigate both Win7 and 8 with just a keyboard.

 

And your opinion became invalid when you thought that was a valid way to write MS.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Iconic - but not perfect.

 

Traditional for tradition's sake is just as wrong as change for change's sake - however, try telling those in favor of tradition that.

 

Mini-Start in Windows 10 is NOT the original Start menu - in fact, it has some nicer features than the original.  Also, it IS more seamless than the original one was.

 

Lastly, unlike the original, it doesn't feel like a kludge.

 

(As I said before, part of my problem with the original Start menu was that it felt kludgy and disjointed.)

 

My issue with bringing it back is that it stomps all over the replacements - including StartIsBack.  Though I don't use it, I don't wish them ill, either - why throw the third parties under the bus?

 

Keyboard and mice haven't changed (yeah sure there is some crazy combos out there but typically a kb/m has stayed a kb/m), should they? If it isn't broke don't fix it...

 

Same goes for monitors, sure there are some touch screen ones now, but most are still monitors that we've been using for 20 years.

 

My point? What's familiar in this case works damn well and has for ages. If you're going to change that you have to make sure as hell you've somehow come up with something better, and Windows 8's initial lets just remove the start button altogether was a complete flop. It even looked hashed, the taskbar looked exactly like a typical taskbar just with a start button missing. 

 

Now trying to make desktop OS and mobile/tablet OS look and feel familiar is a decent approach, to try and get people wanting to invest in the whole MS ecosystem from PC to tablet to phone. But forcing each device to common ground when like it or not some devices have stronger points than others, and work differently, is a poor effort at maximizing each platform for what it can do. Whether MS like it or not 95% of PC's do not have a touchscreen and operate by keyboard and mouse. In not catering to how a lot of those people like to navigate their PC's all they did was alienate people and cause Windows 8 to get slammed.

[PGHammer]

Would you be willing to go as far as, Microsoft's initial implementation of the ModernUI was all about touch?

No - again, if it were, keyboard+mouse users would find it unusable.

 

ModernUI is about smaller screens, and making touch EQUAL to other input options - neutrality, not bias.

 

The issue with the Start menu (as originally designed) is that it actually WAS all about mice - even other pointing devices (such as trackpads and trackballs) got short shrift.

 

And it wasn't as if those non-mouse input methods didn't exist with 7 (or Vista, or XP) - they did; however, they required third-party support to leverage.

 

Also, a lot of users have realized that they put the mouse - not the keyboard - first; once they realized that, they also realized they needed that bias back (hence all the screams of anguish and the "arrival of the waambulance"); they wanted their biases back.

[BajiRav]

Same goes for monitors, sure there are some touch screen ones now, but most are still monitors that we've been using for 20 years.

What? monitors have changed drastically in those 20 years, what are you talking about? We went from mono to color, CRT to LCD/LED/3D, analog to digital. Their functions and technology have changed.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

What? monitors have changed drastically in those 20 years, what are you talking about? We went from mono to color, CRT to LCD/LED/3D, analog to digital. Their functions and technology have changed.

 

If you didn't cut my whole quote out it's obvious what I'm talking about. While touch monitors have arrived the mainstream has stayed as a screen to look at, not to physically interact with. Regardless of the resolution/colour/3D or analog/digital input, a mouse cursor still moves about the same way it has for decades. The screen remains a means to look at, the keyboard/mouse a means of interaction. Unlike on a phone/tablet where the screen acts as the basis for interaction as well.

[PGHammer]

Keyboard and mice haven't changed (yeah sure there is some crazy combos out there but typically a kb/m has stayed a kb/m), should they? If it isn't broke don't fix it...

 

Same goes for monitors, sure there are some touch screen ones now, but most are still monitors that we've been using for 20 years.

 

My point? What's familiar in this case works damn well and has for ages. If you're going to change that you have to make sure as hell you've somehow come up with something better, and Windows 8's initial lets just remove the start button altogether was a complete flop. It even looked hashed, the taskbar looked exactly like a typical taskbar just with a start button missing. 

 

Now trying to make desktop OS and mobile/tablet OS look and feel familiar is a decent approach, to try and get people wanting to invest in the whole MS ecosystem from PC to tablet to phone. But forcing each device to common ground when like it or not some devices have stronger points than others, and work differently, is a poor effort at maximizing each platform for what it can do. Whether MS like it or not 95% of PC's do not have a touchscreen and operate by keyboard and mouse. In not catering to how a lot of those people like to navigate their PC's all they did was alienate people and cause Windows 8 to get slammed.

A biased platform is a niche platform - do you, in fact, care?

 

Windows is moving away from mouse bias because the hardware on which Windows runs is ALSO moving away from it - should all the OEMs that are adding touch support - everywhere - no longer do so?

 

Touch support is becoming pervasive - and especially in new PCs.  It's not JUST smaller screens - though it is still more pervasive there than in larger ones.  Look at AIOs - what is THE big feature in the AIO space in the past two years?

 

Microsoft's dilemma is that traditional keyboards and mice are still around - and, as we both agree, STILL make up the majority usage case for users.  You can't really throw either under the bus, either - and it also MUST be elegant while treating both types of users equally.

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." is what most desktop-application developers have been saying since 7, if not Vista - where are the new desktop applications? (That is the other side of Microsoft's dilemma - desktop-application development has gotten staid, if not downright dull.)

 

Also, you CAN have desktop applications that support touch - the most glaring example is, in fact, Office 2013.  However, it still supports keyboards and mice.  (So much for either/or.)

 

Too many users DO think that way - either/or.  I didn't say you did - however, a lot of folks on your side of the argument do.  I'm simply trying to make a case against either/or, by using my own data points to argue it.

 

Choice isn't the issue (at least not with me) - the insistence on either/or, however, is.