• Sign in to Neowin Faster!

    Create an account on Neowin to contribute and support the site.

Sign in to follow this  

Has Windows 10 redeemed Microsoft?

Recommended Posts

DavidM    329

I could go on for a while about this, but the express settings state what will happen if this option is selected during installation.

Erm, starting with Windows 7, it is possible to send speech recognition information to Microsoft, and technically this could include voice searches if one searches by voice. The feature is optional, just as using the voice capabilities of Cortana is.

Was is enabled by default to search the internet and placed right in the task bar?

You can go on all you want but it does NOT state what you will be sending to Microsoft, they probably still haven't posted exactly what data they are collecting. I haven't seen anything official from Microsoft anyway.

Moving goalposts?

Your initial comment to me was voice recordings were not sent to MS before now, and that is false.  Why didn't you cry foul with Windows 7, 8, and 8.1?

 

No, my initial comment was "I'm pretty sure since they didn't record voice searches",  I have never used the voice parts of Win7 so it is NOT enabled, and I screamed about Win 8 being a piece of crap data mining OS, but you and dot just didn't listen...

Yeah, no wonder malware is such an issue, and Microsoft is using it to their advantage, and I believe I stated the same thing in a post a few minutes ago, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329

Moving goalposts?

Your initial comment to me was voice recordings were not sent to MS before now, and that is false.  Why didn't you cry foul with Windows 7, 8, and 8.1?

 

I don't move goal posts, re-read my post.

People are so upset about express settings, even though express settings has been around for years. Its like they are offended that they have to think about what they are doing instead of just clicking defaults like mad until their mouse button is broken.

And we wonder why malware is such an issue... ;)

Yes, and Microsoft is using this to their advantage... oh wait I just said that a few posts back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329

Wow, that was buggy, the first comments did seem to go and the second didn't get finished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ian W    2,331

People are so upset about express settings, even though express settings has been around for years. Its like they are offended that they have to think about what they are doing instead of just clicking defaults like mad until their mouse button is broken.

And we wonder why malware is such an issue... ;)

As you say, it has existed for years. While I must admit that while there are additional settings enabled by default with express settings in Windows 10, it is not like previous versions didn't enable potentially privacy-invasive features by default as well. IIRC, the express settings in Windows Vista, for example, automatically download and install updates, turn on the phishing filter (essentially Windows SmartScreen)—recall that this sends URLs to Microsoft—and the Windows Error Reporting feature.

Yet I did not see privacy advocates up in arms over these features in previous versions. Double standard, I suppose.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
adrynalyne    12,750

I don't move goal posts, re-read my post.

Yes, and Microsoft is using this to their advantage... oh wait I just said that a few posts back.

Where were you when they did it in 7, 8 and 8.1? Why did you just now decide to come forward and represent the rights of all the poor souls out there?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ian W    2,331

Was is enabled by default to search the internet and placed right in the task bar?

Of course not, but it is optional, just like the features you mentioned are.

You can go on all you want but it does NOT state what you will be sending to Microsoft, they probably still haven't posted exactly what data they are collecting. I haven't seen anything official from Microsoft anyway.

Is that right?
windows-10-customize-settings-100600055-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329

As you say, it has existed for years. While I must admit that while there are additional settings enabled by default with express settings in Windows 10, it is not like previous versions didn't enable potentially privacy-invasive features by default as well. IIRC, the express settings in Windows Vista, for example, automatically download and install updates, turn on the phishing filter (essentially Windows SmartScreen)—recall that this sends URLs to Microsoft—and the Windows Error Reporting feature.
Yet I did not see privacy advocates up in arms over these features in previous versions. Double standard, I suppose.

I think the big problem is more and more settings are being added with the default set to share. I think people are just becoming aware of how much information is getting out there.

Where were you when they did it in 7, 8 and 8.1? Why did you just now decide to come forward and represent the rights of all the poor souls out there?

 

I only represent myself, if "the poor souls out there" don't care enough to try and figure out what information is being sent willing or not, then that's on them.

Of course not, but it is optional, just like the features you mentioned are.

Is that right?windows-10-customize-settings-100600055-

 

Still don't see exactly what is being collected, or who exactly the "trusted partners" are. Is my picture being taken and sent? Is my personal information being stripped out? Will they be using my bandwidth to share updates? This page only skims the surface, no mention of exactly what is being sent to Microsoft and their "trusted partners". They are not disclosing enough about what is being collected, but then that's the point right? If they told us exactly what was being collected they would have to stick to it and collect only that right? Oh, no wait, they can change the terms any time they want, but they will still have all that information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
adrynalyne    12,750

 

Yes, and Microsoft is using this to their advantage... oh wait I just said that a few posts back.

I only represent myself, if "the poor souls out there" don't care enough to try and figure out what information is being sent willing or not, then that's on them.

 

First statement shows concern for others, second one contradicts it.

Any large company that says it can improve a large scale product and give people what they want without data collection is lying to you. You can cry foul, Snowden, Assange, or whatever, but it is true.

Even Ubuntu does it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Son_Of_Dad    1,454

Don't worry, those of us who can comprehend simple logic understand that:

Now that is a minority group!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7Dash8    560

Now that is a minority group!!

Amen. The trick I've quickly come to learn is not to take the bait and get involved in a circular debate with certain members. They'll pull all sorts of speculative fantasy points out of thin air, and when challenged, ask YOU to provide evidence! And round and round she goes, where common sense and logic wind up, nobody knows!

Ultimately the pro-Microsoft lobby group can play all the mental gymnastics they want to try to make Windows 10 sound fantastic and hugely popular. Or to make Windows mobile seem like a misunderstood and underappreciated masterpiece. The only way Windows 10 and Windows mobile will actually be successful is if MS makes money out of it. I'm betting that after all the millions of free installs come and go, after all the high fives and back slapping from Microsoft fans, Windows mobile will die off, users will totally avoid the Windows Store and apps like the plague, and Windows 10 will be left as a failed experiment.

This article you posted earlier summarizes the reasons quite well.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EdLuX    13

Is that right?

windows-10-customize-settings-100600055-

 

I don't want to get involved in the bickering about the nature & amount of private info Microsoft is collecting from users, but I wonder why MS didn't give "Customize settings" the same prominent place and size as "Use express settings" on this screen.

It looks like you are given a fair choice but it's sneaky because we all know  people tend not to read the fine print but click on the biggest and most obvious buttons. (I have to admit I did it myself the first time.) ;)

Edited by EdLuX
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JohnnyMartins    127

No it has not redeemed itself and in fact I think in many things windows 10 is actually worse than windows 8.1:
- Huge privacy issues (privacy settings are opt out and should be exactly the opposite (opt in))
- User Bandwidth sharing on by default can be costly to the user on a metered connection
- Increased battery comsumption
- Huge UI inconsistencies and lack of customization
  (many different styles of context menus, new start menu is a blended mess of the Win7 Start menu and Win8 Start screen, extremely difficult do distinguish active window from background windows, no way to change windows title bar color from that white which makes it difficult to distinguish the title bar from the next bar(menu/ribbon), modern apps have different window frames from desktop apps, 2 different control panels?, more icons with flat design and reduced color usage)
- Modern apps continue to be second rate when compared to their desktop counterparts
- Microsoft managed to make both desktop and tablet experiences worse on windows 10, by trying to unify both of them, ended up lowering the usability on both.

Oh, and now I know why Steve Jobs used to say that microsoft has no taste!!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Son_Of_Dad    1,454

Oh, and now I know why Steve Jobs used to say that microsoft has no taste!!!

While I agree with the points you made does that statement include keeping Jobs afloat while he actually had a COMPUTER company?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jaffar    12

No, if they had respect for their customers these features would be OPT-IN, not opt out. Most people don't understand they have to not use express settings, and Microsoft knows this, look at how virus and malware spread, by people just clicking next. Microsoft has taken advantage of this with their express settings and the way they make it seem like you have to have a Microsoft email address to sign-in.

No, they bumped Win 10 to "recommended" from "optional", and now everyone who doesn't want 10 has to actually stop it unless they turn off recommended updates, another way Microsoft has used the knowledge they gained from their user base. People don't want to know, they want to push power and be using Facebook, playing Candy Something-or-another, and checking their email.

If people don't bitch and complain, it will just continue to get worse...

My father upgraded his PC because he doesn't have a microscope

https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3gndwu/what_is_that_pixel_doing_there_is_this_happening/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329
 

 

First statement shows concern for others, second one contradicts it.

Any large company that says it can improve a large scale product and give people what they want without data collection is lying to you. You can cry foul, Snowden, Assange, or whatever, but it is true.

Even Ubuntu does it.

###### Canonical and their "trusted partners" as well, won't use it either.

While some data collection MIGHT be necessary, they should be asking us to opt-in, not forcing us to opt-out. They should also be very clear about what they are getting and who they are giving it to, I guess asking for user feedback during the alpha to beta to release candidate stages isn't enough any more. Microsoft got plenty of negative feedback for Win 8 and the removal of the start menu but didn't care, and did what they wanted. It was their right an don't blame them for making a business decision, but had they actually listened they wouldn't have to have rushed Win 10 out as a buggy mess to try and save their disaster that was Win 8. All this data collection won't replace getting user feedback during the development stages, but it will make them more money as they share it with their "trusted partners", much like Google, Apple and Canonical. More business decisions, but don't pretend like this data collection is simply about making Windows better, or pretend like removing features like solitaire and then giving them back with ads, then offing to remove them for a subscription is showing their base how much they care about the desktop.

I do have concerns for others, but don't "represent" them, nor do I speak for anyone but myself. Windows 7 remains only because I still find it useful, I have had no use for 8 or 10. I will continue to have a Windows partition, and evaluate every release, and use the product that offers the best solution to my needs, it's really that simple for me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
adrynalyne    12,750

###### Canonical and their "trusted partners" as well, won't use it either.

While some data collection MIGHT be necessary, they should be asking us to opt-in, not forcing us to opt-out. They should also be very clear about what they are getting and who they are giving it to, I guess asking for user feedback during the alpha to beta to release candidate stages isn't enough any more. Microsoft got plenty of negative feedback for Win 8 and the removal of the start menu but didn't care, and did what they wanted. It was their right an don't blame them for making a business decision, but had they actually listened they wouldn't have to have rushed Win 10 out as a buggy mess to try and save their disaster that was Win 8. All this data collection won't replace getting user feedback during the development stages, but it will make them more money as they share it with their "trusted partners", much like Google, Apple and Canonical. More business decisions, but don't pretend like this data collection is simply about making Windows better, or pretend like removing features like solitaire and then giving them back with ads, then offing to remove them for a subscription is showing their base how much they care about the desktop.

I do have concerns for others, but don't "represent" them, nor do I speak for anyone but myself. Windows 7 remains only because I still find it useful, I have had no use for 8 or 10. I will continue to have a Windows partition, and evaluate every release, and use the product that offers the best solution to my needs, it's really that simple for me.

Windows 7 does the same thing privacy wise.

Privacy isn't the real issue obviously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329

Windows 7 does the same thing privacy wise.

Privacy isn't the real issue obviously.

 

Then please enlighten me o wise and powerful adrynalyne, just what is my real issue? I would really love to hear your thoughts instead of your blind and staunch defense of Microsoft and their NEED to collect data to improve Win 12. They will probably need to skip another number to remove the bad taste from our computers again...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jim K    14,176

Then please enlighten me o wise and powerful adrynalyne, just what is my real issue? I would really love to hear your thoughts instead of your blind and staunch defense of Microsoft and their NEED to collect data to improve Win 12. They will probably need to skip another number to remove the bad taste from our computers again...

David, I also do not care much for Windows 10 at this point ... however you tirade about privacy is really a tin-foil type discussion.  You can opt-out though obviously features will be hampered.  The data collected/used  is to improve the features of Windows 10 ... not to spy on your every move.  If people are overly concerned about their privacy ... I highly doubt they will use "express settings" and also research what exactly Windows 10 is transmitting and how to turn it off.  If they don't...then they are obviously not that concerned.

I do agree with a large part of your grievances (for example Solitaire returning back with ads) ... but the privacy stuff can be turned adjusted to meet the end users level of comfort.

Just my opinion in hopes to end the endless circle regarding privacy/Win10.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329

David, I also do not care much for Windows 10 at this point ... however you tirade about privacy is really a tin-foil type discussion.  You can opt-out though obviously features will be hampered.  The data collected/used  is to improve the features of Windows 10 ... not to spy on your every move.  If people are overly concerned about their privacy ... I highly doubt they will use "express settings" and also research what exactly Windows 10 is transmitting and how to turn it off.  If they don't...then they are obviously not that concerned.

I do agree with a large part of your grievances (for example Solitaire returning back with ads) ... but the privacy stuff can be turned adjusted to meet the end users level of comfort.

Just my opinion in hopes to end the endless circle regarding privacy/Win10.

I have yet to find anyone who knows what exactly is being transmitted and collected, nor have I found a way to completely turn of data collection. It hasn't been adjusted for my comfort, the reg hacks and service disabling, being tried have been met with so-so results, some things get re-enabled on boot and other have hidden setting that seem to contradict themselves. Only Microsoft knows what is being collected and stored and they haven't stated anything about it, why is it people always give companies the benefit of a doubt? Microsoft was once considered the most ruthless software company around, they bullied and forced their way to the top, why would I believe they aren't willing to sell any information collected to get back on top?

I understand why it might seem like tin-foil hat discussions, but as Microsoft and other companies move forward, do you think they will really be happy with less data collection in future... in the name of service improvements, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
adrynalyne    12,750

Then please enlighten me o wise and powerful adrynalyne, just what is my real issue? I would really love to hear your thoughts instead of your blind and staunch defense of Microsoft and their NEED to collect data to improve Win 12. They will probably need to skip another number to remove the bad taste from our computers again...

who knows what your real issue is. However it doesn't take a genius to see that if privacy is a true concern, you don't go back to an OS with the same privacy concerns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329

who knows what your real issue is. However it doesn't take a genius to see that if privacy is a true concern, you don't go back to an OS with the same privacy concerns.

Where is the proof that 7 collects the same amount of data that 10 does? You always seem to allude to it but never have offered any proof of this claim.

I personally do not have the same level of privacy concerns for Win 7 that I do for Win 10, maybe I should since you are convinced they collect the same information. I just wonder how you came to the conclusion that Win 7 and Win 10 have the same privacy issues?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
adrynalyne    12,750

Where is the proof that 7 collects the same amount of data that 10 does? You always seem to allude to it but never have offered any proof of this claim.

I personally do not have the same level of privacy concerns for Win 7 that I do for Win 10, maybe I should since you are convinced they collect the same information. I just wonder how you came to the conclusion that Win 7 and Win 10 have the same privacy issues?

Google it, it is there ripe for the picking.

Wait don't, because that will collect information on you.  Here is a small taste, but there are many articles out there:

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2521809/government-it/nsa-helped-with-windows-7-development.html

It pulls telemetry data just like 10, including voice recordings if you use voice with it, just like 10. Its already been shown to you.

However if you don't use those features, it doesn't. I get the distinct feeling you think MS is turning on the mic and camera automatically to collect your data.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidM    329

Google it, it is there ripe for the picking.

Wait don't, because that will collect information on you.  Here is a small taste, but there are many articles out there:

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2521809/government-it/nsa-helped-with-windows-7-development.html

It pulls telemetry data just like 10, including voice recordings if you use voice with it, just like 10. Its already been shown to you.

However if you don't use those features, it doesn't. I get the distinct feeling you think MS is turning on the mic and camera automatically to collect your data.

Ha-ha, no I don't believe that Microsoft is turning on anything, they will let the uninformed masses do that for them. Do you wonder why the Enterprise Editions have this stuff turned off be default? I do, I mean if they aren't collecting anything personal why would businesses not want to help Microsoft get future versions of Windows right?

I would use DuckDuckGo, but not because I fear the information Google collects, Google can only collect a limited amount of personal data by using their search. Microsoft has access to much more personal information stored on my pc, and I'm more concerned about their "trusted partners". It is not the same, sure Google can identify my machine with cookies and the information my browser provides, but they can't identify me personally unless I let them. Remember that whole "real name" flop they tried?

I understand my personal information has no real value to Microsoft, but it has value to their "trusted partners" and since I don't know who their trusted partners are... how can I make an informed decision to trust them or not, and what about their trusted partners, trusted partners? I also understand they are not spying on me personally, yet, nor or they trying to steal passwords and break into my bank account, but that information could be on my pc, and since they have NOT stated officially what is being collected, well you can figure out the rest right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
adrynalyne    12,750

Ha-ha, no I don't believe that Microsoft is turning on anything, they will let the uninformed masses do that for them. Do you wonder why the Enterprise Editions have this stuff turned off be default? I do, I mean if they aren't collecting anything personal why would businesses not want to help Microsoft get future versions of Windows right?

I would use DuckDuckGo, but not because I fear the information Google collects, Google can only collect a limited amount of personal data by using their search. Microsoft has access to much more personal information stored on my pc, and I'm more concerned about their "trusted partners". It is not the same, sure Google can identify my machine with cookies and the information my browser provides, but they can't identify me personally unless I let them. Remember that whole "real name" flop they tried?

I understand my personal information has no real value to Microsoft, but it has value to their "trusted partners" and since I don't know who their trusted partners are... how can I make an informed decision to trust them or not, and what about their trusted partners, trusted partners? I also understand they are not spying on me personally, yet, nor or they trying to steal passwords and break into my bank account, but that information could be on my pc, and since they have NOT stated officially what is being collected, well you can figure out the rest right?

I run Enterprise at work joined to a domain.

It is NOT turned off if you use express settings, which again brings us back to mad clickers being the larger issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sean B.    175

Then please enlighten me o wise and powerful adrynalyne, just what is my real issue? I would really love to hear your thoughts instead of your blind and staunch defense of Microsoft and their NEED to collect data to improve Win 12. They will probably need to skip another number to remove the bad taste from our computers again...

Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't CEIP been an optional program to opt-in since Vista in 2006?  You choose whether or not to participate and it is an option that you can later disable if you don't want to participate.

Feedback and user experience has always been what has shaped future versions of Windows, it isn't like your keystrokes are being recorded and sent to Redmond for analysis.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.