religion? fake? real?

[RufioPan]

I think the point is the irony of things... ok... religion doesn't cause war but it is an excuse for war... and meanwhile all religions preach for peace and love and whatnot... but do they ever do what they say?

so that's one reason why religion is pointless and full of contradictions.

"Do they ever do what they say"? Does who ever do what they say? Religions? You really have to study religion and the lives of the Prophets of these religions to understand what religion is about and the peace that it preaches. Before you do that, I don't think you'd be doing right to say that religion causes war.

Of course religion can be used as an excuse for war, but it never *causes* war. ANYTHING can be used as an excuse for war, just like toothpicks can be used to hurt people. Look at the intention of religion though.

Hmmm i believe religions are fake and even god is fake. So i dont believe in any of em. I think a lot of us would agree. Plus, we "earthlings" have a lot of problems in some parts of the world like the middle east because of their f***ing affinity towards th religions and they cant get over it by think that it doesn't exist.

Dude, do you even understand the driving motivations behind anything in the middle east? Do you know its history? Have you ever read the Quran? Any religious book for that matter? Perhaps you'd want to do that before blaring nonsense in public forums.

Sorry if I'm a little rude, but that comment struck a nerve :s

[mech]

I see you still haven't come back with any proof ZAnwar, I guess it's not a case of you forgetting more a case of you not being able to find any proof what so ever your God is real.

People who believe in God(s) should just stop coming to this thread until they can bring one shread of evidence showing that their god exists / their whole religion isn't a sham.

I guess saying that if anyone goes by it, there will be no more posts in this thread ;x.

[xerox]

People tend to see their own firm belief, and the number of people who believe the same thing as "proof" enough...

[RufioPan]

People who believe in God(s) should just stop coming to this thread until they can bring one shread of evidence showing that their god exists / their whole religion isn't a sham.

If we offer you a book or two that I believe is evidence for faith in God, will you actually read them or look through them?

Even if you don't want to read the Quran, you can read Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth online. It examines the evidence of Islam from various perspectives from both a social and scientific perspective with a basis in rationality and revelation.

I've found the book to be quite amazing... if you read that, I think you'll find quite a lot of evidence that you're looking for.

[TheElite]

I see you still haven't come back with any proof ZAnwar, I guess it's not a case of you forgetting more a case of you not being able to find any proof what so ever your God is real.

People who believe in God(s) should just stop coming to this thread until they can bring one shread of evidence showing that their god exists / their whole religion isn't a sham.

I guess saying that if anyone goes by it, there will be no more posts in this thread ;x.

look, i wanted REAL evidence.

i know if i put a search in Google, you would say, ah, these sites can say what the want, they dont have to be true.

fine then, take a look at the site http://www.geocities.com/islaminme001/bi_poag.htm

[RufioPan]

fine then, take a look at the site http://www.geocities.com/islaminme001/bi_poag.htm

Nice link... thanks!

[envision]

My take on this, as i think is proved by the length of this thread... is that everyone has there own opinion (beliefs?) on this topic and that means everyone will argue 'their' point. This leads to war because some people force their opinion believing so much that it is the only 'right' opinion (extremists?) until conflict arises.

My own personal belief... and I state.. i am not forcing this 'opinion' on anyone, so nobody needs to reply to me and argue against it.

My personal opinion is that religion is a form of teaching devised many years ago to instil the values of goodness within a child as they grow up and even as an adult throughout life. All religions teach what is good, moral values, care for one another, the sanctity of life etc. It's still up to people to choose to live their lives 100% according to these guidelines and therefore be good. Or for them to chose to be bad... or occasionally wander of the beaten track, so to speak.

Life is an experience and therefore there is no wrong or right way to live it, everybody's way is right for them.

Just my idea, and I admit, I could easily be wrong.

:p

[Rell]

[TheElite]

Life is an experience and therefore there is no wrong or right way to live it, everybody's way is right for them.

do u really believe this? lol.

you said that it might be fine for them, but it might not really be good OVERALL.

thats like saying, you cant call a murderer a bad person, that is how he wants to live, killing people.

if everybody's ways were RIGHT for them, there would be no restrictions, no prisons, no cops.

[envision]

i did not specify the type of person or define the boundaries of my argument in any way. obviously the things which are morally bad according to the masses such as murder, rape etc. are wrong. i meant everybodies lifestyle is right for them in the sense of wether they believe in god, they don't... or they sacrifice sheep and spear their innards on their loved ones genitalia before going out for pizza.

[obscure_detour]

I believe I've read about the first 6 pages then the last 2. What a horrible mess this thread turned out to be. Here's my take on all of this. I find myself mostly agreeing with envision, though.

I believe that there obviously is a God and he loves me just as much as he loves anybody else. Now, as an example I'll use Christianity... Christians are open on this very topic to all, that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ you will be damned to Hell when you die. Now can anybody honestly tell me they think Ghandi went to Hell? There's something to think about. I'm sure we all could think of many other names to substitue for Gandi's. And We'd all question it's validity.

Now the thing that gets me is people are so firm on their beliefs that they'll actually mock others about theirs. For example ZAnwar did with envision.

QUOTE (envision @ Mar 17 2004, 17:05)

Life is an experience and therefore there is no wrong or right way to live it, everybody's way is right for them.?

do u really believe this? lol.

So let me ask this to others and especially to ZAnwar. Who are you to judge his views and beliefs? Are you in his shoes? Have you experienced everything he has as a person? Of course you didn't. You are simply laughing at him for no other reason than you disagree with him mainly based off the fact that you were born and raised a Muslim.

So let me ask you and everybody else this: Why do you believe you can question others beliefs based on what you've been taught and believed since you were able to understand anything? How can you judge someone for their beliefs and opinion when you know not where they come from? Such ignorance I presume.

I believe that everyone as a human has the ability within them to reach God. Whatever ways you do the latter does not matter. As long as you are content within oneself and God is all that matters. Humans weren't made to always agree with each other, that's the beauty of it! I cannot deny anyones beliefs, all I can do is read and try to understand where they are coming from.

I don't pity ZAnwar or any others for believing in Allah. I don't pity my parents for believing in Jesus. I love them both for it, for they are a step ahead! It's a matter of how they are content with them and God. I have to respect that reguardless.

The real people we should worry about are people who think religion is a waste of time, for with out it I believe we are lost. The Gospel of Thomas verse 70 has Jesus saying this:

If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you.  If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you will destroy you.

We all have access to God within us, it's merely bringing it forth that saves us.

Now by no means do I "follow" Jesus, but I can always learn from him. And that's what we should be doing with each other. We shouldn't argue our beliefs, but listen as we may learn something anew.

When doyou> feel thatyour> learning is complete?

obscure detour>

Edited April 6, 2004 by obscure_detour

[2009]

OMFG......this thread did turn out to be a genuine BASH-A-PERSON-FOR-HIS-RELIGIOUS BELIEF. mods close this.

and Zanwar, stop being so damn ignorant. open your eyes, get a clue about life. dont force ur religion on other people and say they will burn in hell forever. every1 in life deserve happiness for what they believe in, and if u cant appreciate that...then....ur hopeless

ps. CLOSE THIS THREAD

[2009]

to tell u guys. when i first started this thread, i was doing a school project about how religion is a dominate problem in the world today. with 25 pages (actually first 10), i was able to do a convincing report about how it is true. thanks guys.

also...

i just dont understand why do people have to fight over a belief or faith. you guys who argue fiercely over this (COUGH Zanwar COUGH) have to stop. it's people like you wy we have a war torn earth. i am not saying religion is bad, in fact, it's the best thing that happened to me. with religion, i was able to see the world with a compassion point of view. i m able to accept and to love people more then ever. i read the bible, but i dont go around say that non-believer will go to hell and burn for all of eternity. so my point is that when we read holy writings, we have to read more into what's right and what's wrong, love is good, compassion is good, truth is good, wisdom is good. what's bad is that we take our belief to bash other people and kill them over it. and guys, any holy writing IS NOT THE INFALLABLE OWRD OF GOD. words can be changed constantly, just like the game telephone. i personnaly believe we can achieve salvation/enlightenment by just doing selfless act of love. think about it, did Ghandi went to hell and burn because he believe in human rights?.....

[Ex_Nihilo]

I believe that everyone as a human has the ability within them to reach God. Whatever ways you do the latter does not matter. As long as you are content within oneself and God is all that matters.

Being content with yourself and your Creator is a positive thing by any perspective. The issue at hand is whether or not God is content with us.

If he is a tolerant God that can be reached by many paths, as you stipulate, then yes. But if he is a holy and, dare I say, intolerant God as the "born-again" Christians state, then most assuredly not.

[rvbfan]

people have been arguing about this for centuries

[TheElite]

any holy writing IS NOT THE INFALLABLE OWRD OF GOD.

really?

damn.

the bible and torah may not be 100%, but the Quran DEFINETELY is 100% true.

i dont know one christian or jew or heard of one that has memorised the whole of the torah or the bible (gospel).

i know many people who have memorised the quran. this is how it has been over centuries, that is why the validity stays. that is why the Quran has not been falsified.

[envision]

I myself have a best friend who is an Arabic Muslim.. born in Rhiad, Saudi. He and I have spoken often about this very subject. I am not a religious person... i believe in myself and do not feel I need to have faith in anyone but myself, friends and loved ones. I am ok with that. He is a devout Muslim. But even he agrees that the biggest problem with the Muslim faith is the people who claim to be Muslim and seriously believe themselves to be, but who have misunderstood many aspects of the Quran and it's teachings.

Zhanwar, you say that the Quran has never been changed ever so is 100% correct. Who wrote it? I mean in the beginning, tell me who wrote it?

Also, and I know this is true.. the Quran just like the bible states that it is a guide to the path of good, not a step by step instruction manual. And, it also clearly states that to disrespect the differing views of others on faith is to directly insult Allah and you will be punished.

So your already screwed and in defiance of your faith. But, luckily for you your god is a forgiving one.

Peace and Love to all faiths, and to all those people on this board who are true to themselves. All those who are extremists with distorted views and twisted religious understandings... god rest your damned souls!

My god... me, has spoken.

[TheElite]

you say that the Quran has never been changed ever so is 100% correct. Who wrote it? I mean in the beginning, tell me who wrote it?

the first writings were done by Prophet Muhammad's best friend, as angel Gabriel recited it to the Prophet, he then told his friend to write it down.

[dtmunir]

hey everyone

i have been silently following this mindless debate and had so far not wished to interefere. I have seen and learnt that debate on religios issues really can bring out the worst in people. Although i am a Muslim, I donot believe in condemning people to hell, for I believe that it is each individuals own experience that determines what he believes in. Ofcourse as an intelligent species it is our duty to try and find out what the truth is, and in my opinion this can only be done by learning enough about various religions, both through history AND through their religious books, ie the Bible, Quran, etc.

However today i feel compelled to point something out, not because it contradicts my beliefs, but simply becuase it is a factual error. If i let this go unchanged, then many people will take a wrong message from here.

Also, and I know this is true.. the Quran just like the bible states that it is a guide to the path of good, not a step by step instruction manual.

You see the Quran IS indeed a step by step instruction manual. It itself claims to be one. Ofcourse i can understand that if your not a muslim then you wont be following this manual, and i dont blame you for it or hold it against you. But what i AM saying is that you ARE a muslim then the Quran IS a step-by-step instructi0on manual. It provides explicit instructions on almost every facet of life. How to eat, how to sleep, how to establish relations with people, how to establish relations with other nations, politics, and the list just goes on. From birth do death, every action of your life does have specific instructions for in the Quran

All i wish to say is that envision, you are perhaps unknowingly distorting the facts here. I understand that you have an arabic muslim friend, but perhaps you yourself can see that to rely on ONE individual as a source of all information and judgement regarding an entire RELIGION and its 1.1 million followers CAN be folly.

No offence intended to anyone.

In my opinion, Everyone has a right to their own belief ofcourse, but only if this belief is founded not on ignorance, but on careful study and evaluation of the various other beliefs.

Cheers

Danish

[mswarts]

About 100 of these posts send me hell-bound :cry:

[The Prodigal Father]

i don't see any logic to religion at all.

But then again, i don't mind if other people do, because it gives them something to believe in, something to have faith in. I think deep down many people just want an authority figure, they don't feel entirely comfortable making their own decisions, and need to believe that there is something that is guiding them.

oh well, my belief is that jesus christ was a great magician, just like all of those that claim to be "prophets" because, nowadays, if i made the claim that i was the "messiah" i'd probably get shot on the street.

but this topic was very poorley executed, and ended up as a mindless debate like dtmunir said.

the only person that you should have faith in is yourself, and most people do, they just don't know it, i mean, if you say you "talk" to god, its just the voice in your head that gives reason.

Conclusion: Faith/God is a placebo.

edit: don't bash people for their beleifs and ignorance, just do what i do, laugh at them from afar. :)

edit2: oh oh! i forgot to add! religion is not the cause for the problems of the world (well it probably is, but still), its just the excuse people give for their actions.

[TheElite]

i don't see any logic to religion at all.

why not?

you see more logic in something that was created miraculously, not something done by God?

how did we come here? why did we come here? explain YOUR logic. if you cant explain it, then religion wins because it has got the answers to the questions which you cant answer.

[BOOGMaster]

I'm tired after reading all this mess. It's quite disturbing, actually...

God is real. The Quran is a cult book - misleading people on a global scale. Jesus is real. Died for you. The Bible - flawless in it's original form. Salvation? Through Jesus. Good works? Being a good person? Not gonna get you into heaven. Why? Because our God is a just God. Sin is not allowed. Speeding on the interstate? Sin. Thinking a perverted thought? Sin. Need I go on? By the blood of Jesus you were saved, and by believing that He died for you, are you able to spend eternity in heaven. If not, then yep - you go to hell. Scary, huh? Nah - not once you are filled by the Holy Spirit...

<yawns>

Let the flames begin...he we go again!

[panoz]

Ok here is my point of view..

Not bashing anyone else beliefs. So if you want to flame, go ahead.

I have been raised by very believing Christian parents, but I can't really see the point of the institute that (a/the) church is. If I want to get in contact with God, I'm sure that he will listen to me with or without the presence of a 3:rd person acting as the medium/?holy link? to God.

(Almost) All the current available religions are stating that there is a superior being that directs us humans, but in different ways as described in the Holy Bible, Quran etc etc..

Every each holy book states its own truths and guidelines. Fine with me.. There is no correct religion, and that is according to me, it's all up for everyone to decide which one(religion/truth) that suits you. (Almost 100% sure that Zanwar is going to quote me he:p :p ) Anyways.. I personally believe that someone or a greater force is watching over us. "Us" being the all the living creatures that lived, live and shall live on our little planet called earth.

The whole religion thingy has become like a brand that is hosted on a piece of clothing. Everyone does his/hers own commercials for that product and tries to make other people buy the "holy stuff? that will surely guide you to heaven, paradise or whatever. The exploitation is getting very noticeable.

I choose to believe in my self and on a possible superior being, if he/she/it cares to listen to my prayers.

Either way I will go on with living my life, charted or not charted, continue doing those "bad things" I do very day and knowing that God/(or enter whatever you want here) will correct me when the time is right. Until then.. I pursue my belief, right or wrong. Who cares anyway? I'm neither hurting nor creating problems for other religions or believers of other/same Gods/Holy Books etc etc..

[BOOGMaster]

<sighs>

people just don't get it.