RufioPan Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 true,i have been a catolic since birth,although i dont go to church sundays, i prefer to believe in god and all that instead of aliens and all those stupid things.if you see some things in life,like how we are so intelligent,how everything is so perfect(flora and fauna not the world status) etc. there must be a superior force controlling all this. Exactly... excellent point. The very nature of creation is such that it necessitates a creator. There are examples upon examples of creative and intelligent design amongst all life forms, physical systems, and even celestial events. Considering that the evolutionary process is supposed to be a blind process driven by random chance, it's rather unlikely that any order should result from this process, let alone entire ordered systems and species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idkfa Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Ok, lets say you were God, or the Creator. You might have someone above you with more power or whatever, but thats another discussion by itself. So you've decided to create a world with life, trees, oceans, stars etc... Why on earth would you sit at your drawing board and include things like cancer. And if you had to add a disease like that, why would you allow young children to be susceptible to it? I know you can't answer this question, no one can, because people who believe in God will make up something to accept this design flaw, and people who don't believe in God will use it to prove that the whole 'Creator' idea is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warning Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I have seen a somewhat biased although compelling peice of text which explains a huge list of faults in the belief of gos o any higher entity and although the bible was written by a different bunch of people (apparently) it also showed that a large part of it was contradictory, in some of the most important defintions of the "god". Some may disagree, but i think that religion will eventually either explode and a huge amount of people will join one of the many religions or there will come a point in our history where it will suddenly disintegrate due to the basic evidence that may be put towards the population, but as far as i'm concerned, with all the good it does, maybe it should always be there, and i have no doubt that it will, in what numbers in the future, well forgive the phrase, God knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufioPan Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Ok, lets say you were God, or the Creator. You might have someone above you with more power or whatever, but thats another discussion by itself. So you've decided to create a world with life, trees, oceans, stars etc...Why on earth would you sit at your drawing board and include things like cancer. And if you had to add a disease like that, why would you allow young children to be susceptible to it? I know you can't answer this question, no one can, because people who believe in God will make up something to accept this design flaw, and people who don't believe in God will use it to prove that the whole 'Creator' idea is nonsense. Sometimes people die from cancer, sometimes they survive. These hardships serve multiple purposes. For one, cancer is just another of life's trials and tribulations. We all go through some form of suffering or another. The true test of our faith, the true test of our reliance upon God comes during those times when we are humbled by the situations in which we have no control. God uses these situations to test us and to test our faith in Him. Secondly, without trial or hardship, humanity would have no incentive for progression. We inspired by our Creator and we utilize the intellectual capacity He gave us to understand our world and to help ourselves and others. If everything was always perfect, we'd never know good, we'd never know God's blessings. It is only in contrast to suffering that we know what happiness is. Only in contrast to death do we know what life is. It's part of the perfect symmetry of this universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idkfa Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 For one, cancer is just another of life's trials and tribulations.I think I'll just pretend I didn't read that....God uses these situations to test us and to test our faith in Him. That makes God a cruel prick. And it also makes him come across as pretty insecure. I could test how much my dog really wanted to have me as an owner by putting a bullet through his puppy infront of him and seeing if he still liked me. But that is obviously a very screwed up way to go about things. Secondly, without trial or hardship, humanity would have no incentive for progression.So hardship has to come in the form of chemotherapy or watching your child slowly die in immense pain infront of you. God really didn't take the time to think of better ways to provide incentives for people to progress. If there was no such thing as cancer in this world I can tell you honestly that my progression in life would not be different. It is natural for most people to want to progress. If there was such a creator, he obviously has a lot of power and by the looks of things he can do pretty much anything. Therefore he could create humans with the inbuilt mentality to want to progress at a steady rate. Introducing horrible things is a round-a-bout way to try and get people to progress.If everything was always perfect, we'd never know good Once again, is introducing cancer the best way to illustrate that not everything is perfect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElite Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 yes, if there were no problems we would be living perfect lives. but these things are here to TEST us. when we have these problems, God wants to see if we will still remember him and not lose faith in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardedwonder Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Quite simple, it's a way of controlling a lot of people and the ability to believe in something and give people hope that when they die that won't be it. It also 'explained' a lot of things that couldn't be explained a long time ago. Also do you know that the protestant church was founded because some fat ginger king (Henry VIII) in England was firing blanks and couldn't get a divorce? It only seems to create more problems then it sorts out and also creates lots more divisions then there needs to be. PS: I haven't had time to look through all posts so sorry for any repeating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mech Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 You still haven't come back with any proof ZAnwar, have a hard time finding any? ;x It's funny to see people here who believe in god dismiss the existence of aliens considering the likely hood of them existing is far greater than the possibility of an all powerful creator who lives in heaven along with all our dead. The fact is everything about this planet and what's on it is flawed, which mean's the thing that created it must be flawed as well, and considering god is suppose to be perfect I guess that mean's he/she/it couldn't of created anything here, unless god is flawed as well? :z. The only reason religion still exists today is because the people who believe in it are still in power and they won't let it die out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElite Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 It also 'explained' a lot of things that couldn't be explained a long time ago. erm, and things u cant explain now either :whistle: :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElite Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 It's funny to see people here who believe in god dismiss the existence of aliens considering the likely hood of them existing is far greater than the possibility of an all powerful creator who lives in heaven along with all our dead.The fact is everything about this planet and what's on it is flawed, which mean's the thing that created it must be flawed as well, and considering god is suppose to be perfect I guess that mean's he/she/it couldn't of created anything here, unless god is flawed as well? :z. The only reason religion still exists today is because the people who believe in it are still in power and they won't let it die out. oh, sorry mech. forgot about ya mate. i am at school at the moment, so i will whenm i get home. oh and just because we beleve in God, dont mean we dont believe in aliens. oh and yeah, God created the world perfect, it is US HUMANS which destroyed it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufioPan Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 It's funny to see people here who believe in god dismiss the existence of aliens considering the likely hood of them existing is far greater than the possibility of an all powerful creator who lives in heaven along with all our dead. Actually, it's quite likely that aliens do exist and that we will come into contact with them one day (whether physically or via some form of remote communication). The Quran supports this. Secondly, my belief is that God doesn't live in heaven.. He just created it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardedwonder Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 erm, and things u cant explain now either :whistle: :rolleyes: eg. why is the grass green sky blue etc. Evolution as well, depriving children of a proper education to tell them all that stuff about Adam & Eve is pathetic. Dinosaurs..... Sure there's a lot of stuff i can't explain; why are there so many religions? So many different Gods? So many different answers, it just doesn't add up which is why i am more suspicious of religion and take the view that none are right. Surely that makes sense, if someone wants to believe in something then that's fine just don't impose your views on other people or use it as an excuse to kill, hurt or steal from others. Without religion would there be such problems in Ireland? Would there be an Al-Qaeda? What about mass genocides (WWI/II, Baltic states [bosnia etc], The Boer War, The Crusades), to name but a few, without religion would these attrocities have happened? Don't want to field the protestant question? Oh i also watched a southpark episode about the mormons(?) i'm going to have to read up on them because it sounds amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufioPan Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I think I'll just pretend I didn't read that....That makes God a cruel prick. And it also makes him come across as pretty insecure. I could test how much my dog really wanted to have me as an owner by putting a bullet through his puppy infront of him and seeing if he still liked me. But that is obviously a very screwed up way to go about things. So hardship has to come in the form of chemotherapy or watching your child slowly die in immense pain infront of you. God really didn't take the time to think of better ways to provide incentives for people to progress. If there was no such thing as cancer in this world I can tell you honestly that my progression in life would not be different. It is natural for most people to want to progress. If there was such a creator, he obviously has a lot of power and by the looks of things he can do pretty much anything. Therefore he could create humans with the inbuilt mentality to want to progress at a steady rate. Introducing horrible things is a round-a-bout way to try and get people to progress. Once again, is introducing cancer the best way to illustrate that not everything is perfect? Target Audience, I'm sorry you see cancer that way, but frankly that doesn't make God insecure, cruel or any of the above. By that definition just having children is cruel. After all, why bring them into the world in which they'll never know absolute safety? Why? We do it because we want to love them and share that love with them. We watch them grow and we are pleased or displeased with them. We help them achieve, we stand-by them in difficulty, we have all these wonderful feelings we are capable of experiencing, and fact is, we'd have none of it without God. So which God is the real one? The God of cruelty or the God of grace and mercy? Is life a torture session or an opportunity to please God and have Him please us? Religious people claim to have experienced some of God's pleasure upon us (I can make that claim), and it's knowing peace and security that is God's mercy. So, Target, are you going to ever have children? If you do, will you have them to be pleased with them and love them, or to torture them (knowing that cancer exists)? As for cancer, it's part of the natural system we exist in. It's a system of balance... all things that have life, have to die as well, despite our attachment to those people/things. It's unfortunate when children die of cancer, but cancer is also the result of a natural system that prevents humanity from being wiped out. The division of cells and mutations lead to genetic refinements and strengthening of the immune system. That's the nature of life... life progresses in balance with other factors that test life and try it. Without the trial, life would wither away and die out. It's a law of nature. You CANNOT have biological progress without external trial, and neither can you have any other type of progress without a challenge. You say that your drive for progress would be no different without cancer... forgetting that the empathy for someone suffering from cancer is a positive thing in itself, we'll restrict cancer to a biological process. Thus your reaction to it is purely biological and not emotional. Considering only emotional progress... how would you progress emotionally without any external challenge? How do children develop emotionally? They are challenged, tried, and thus become strengthened. If one is not challenged, then once challenged, that person will be unable to overcome that challenge. It's a fact of nature. Consider technological innovation. What's to innovate if we're satisfied with what we already have? Well the key is that we're not satisfied. We innovate to challenge ourselves and learn more. If we lived perfectly and had no needs and had no challenges, we wouldn't innovate at all. It's a fact of life. You could say that humanity is given an innate drive to progress in knowledge... that is also true, but it is only useful in an atmosphere of challenges. If there were no challenges, there'd be nothing to progress in. You cannot deny that challenge is necessary for progression. To answer your question... is cancer the best way to illustrate imperfection? No, but it is one way. And imperfection is a prerequisite for the need to achieve greater perfection. Yet another fact of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElite Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Without religion would there be such problems in Ireland? Would there be an Al-Qaeda? What about mass genocides (WWI/II, Baltic states [bosnia etc], The Boer War, The Crusades), to name but a few, without religion would these attrocities have happened? Wars still happen without the name of religion, religion is just blamed for it. take the "War on Terror" for example. if Bush Blair, other people, really wanted to get Saddam Hussein out of power, there were better ways to go rather than barging into someone country. now wonder there are suicide attacks now/bombs. because people are ****ed off that if these things can happen, we should do something about it. there are no more martin luther kings, the only thing now is violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufioPan Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Wars still happen without the name of religion, religion is just blamed for it.take the "War on Terror" for example. if Bush Blair, other people, really wanted to get Saddam Hussein out of power, there were better ways to go rather than barging into someone country. now wonder there are suicide attacks now/bombs. because people are ****ed off that if these things can happen, we should do something about it. there are no more martin luther kings, the only thing now is violence. Well said. The fact is that it's not religion that drives people, but just ideologies. It can be any type of ideology... social, political, moral, religious, etc. More importantly, we should realize that any ideology can be misused, no matter how well intentioned. Doesn't mean the ideology is corrupt, but rather the people employing it are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardedwonder Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I wasn't talking about war in general because i recognise that wars can happen but was pointing to the fact of religiously motivated wars. Without religion would these have happened? Also if there's no religion no-one can 'missuse' it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElite Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I wasn't talking about war in general because i recognise that wars can happen but was pointing to the fact of religiously motivated wars. Without religion would these have happened?Also if there's no religion no-one can 'missuse' it..... well, WW1 - about religion? i dont think so. WW2 - not really, the fact that 6 million JEWS got killed dont matter, if ANY 6 million people got killed, the war would have still started. i dont know much about the other wars so i cant say. the only one which was TRUELY on religion was the Crusades. oh, and there is prolly not one thing in this world that cant be misused. shall we remove everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufioPan Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 As ZAnwar pointed out, it doesn't stand to reason to say that we should get rid of religion simply because wars *have* occurred due to it. I mean, we can't very well rid ourselves of wars just because of that. If we got rid of religion, people would just find a different motivation to fight each other. No "religious war" has anything to do with religion. I can't think of a single religion that preaches war over peace, yet every religion has at some point been used to justify war. The fact is that the people responsible for wars will use any motivation to fight their war. So, no, less religion does not equal less war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I think the point is the irony of things... ok... religion doesn't cause war but it is an excuse for war... and meanwhile all religions preach for peace and love and whatnot... but do they ever do what they say? so that's one reason why religion is pointless and full of contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebadiah Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Hmmm i believe religions are fake and even god is fake. So i dont believe in any of em. I think a lot of us would agree. Plus, we "earthlings" have a lot of problems in some parts of the world like the middle east because of their f***ing affinity towards th religions and they cant get over it by think that it doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destian Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 first of all if i offend with religious background, then sorry. do you guys ever think deeper about religion? what if alien started religion here on earth, because you know that back 2000 years ago, any form of technology can be seen as "miracle" by the people. so what i am saying is that what if this whole religion thing is a haox, just some little experiment by the aliens... :no: :no: :no: This post has nearly 350 replies? :no: :no: :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebadiah Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I think this must be the biggest topic ever in here :D and i also agree with the user "2009" who started this topic about 24 pages behind that religions and god could be made by aliens long back when humans had not evolved to the present stage. :yes: :yes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JorgeIvan Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 what a post!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 nm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElite Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I think the point is the irony of things... ok... religion doesn't cause war but it is an excuse for war... and meanwhile all religions preach for peace and love and whatnot... but do they ever do what they say? so that's one reason why religion is pointless and full of contradictions. what? how can you blame the RELIGION when something Right is not practiced by people, it is the peoples fault, not the religions. thats like saying, ah i blame my mercedes for not having tvs put in all seats. whose faults that, the flipping makers', not the cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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