official World of Warcraft

[gigapixels Veteran]

Yes, of course. I was just correcting what seemed like an error in the information given. That is, you can search a guild on a server and have the "live" box checked to get an updated roster, not necessarily updated members. If I missed some context here I apologize.

Ah, I see. And I was speaking more on the topic of WoW-Heroes rankings in general, not just to your reply :)

[I am Redbeard]

The game has equated effort with time spent which is ludicrous in comparison to BC. Each new content release is not much more difficult than the previous when it came out. ie, Ulduar was as hard as Naxxramas was when each was released.

My example was to relate the game to it's current form. I could have, for it would have been the same example, told you how about all the times I downed Azgalor in BC only to watch a Warrior or Shaman win the gloves. Does that constitute as effort? No. Should I have been more patient then, too? Yes.

Because I had the crossbow of relentless strikes (150 Badges of Justice) is that effort? No, not when you factor in the time allotted to obtain badges. How about the s3 vengeful axe ever single hunter had? 1100 Arena points? psh. No effort required, right?

No effort, IMO, = logging in, receiving an in game mail from blizzard full of loot. If that doesn't happen and you have to get gear from farming heroics than you're putting in effort.

Now, considering my gear is a mixture of ToC25 Gear (Legs/Gloves[75 Emblems/45 Emblems and 2 Trophies.]),ToGC10 (Boots), ICC and Badge Gear (shoulders/trinket/ring[45 Emblems/35 Emblems /50Emblems]) that's a minimum of 250 Emblems, not to mention the chance of being raid rolled a trophy.

Opinions will differ.. and we can discuss back and forth what constitutes as effort/skill/performance.. if gear doesn't matter, and linking meters that show you on top, by a long shot, doesn't matter, then I don't know what does.

[Slane]

Now, considering my gear is a mixture of ToC25 Gear (Legs/Gloves[75 Emblems/45 Emblems and 2 Trophies.]),ToGC10 (Boots), ICC and Badge Gear (shoulders/trinket/ring[45 Emblems/35 Emblems /50Emblems]) that's a minimum of 250 Emblems, not to mention the chance of being raid rolled a trophy.

You could be in full iLvl 258 gear (i'm not counting ICC since only partial loot tables is out there atm), all of it being heroic and it doesn't even stand a chance against someone showing you full T3 (back when 60 was level cap). Gear is to easy to get and the notion that your gear iLvl's show you are geared is completly wrong.

[I am Redbeard]

The game is not the same game it used to be, that seems to be the only answer to your complaining.

[Noveed]

Opinions will differ.. and we can discuss back and forth what constitutes as effort/skill/performance.. if gear doesn't matter, and linking meters that show you on top, by a long shot, doesn't matter, then I don't know what does.

Hunters are overpowered anyways at the moment, even with less comparable gear I out dps many players/classes with higher tiered gear than myself, the game has no balance what so ever in that sence. After 2 years of having the hunter as main i thought i would give other classes a try and roles, Paladin DPS seems to be rediculously easy, so much easier than hunter dps due to there being no rotations apart from the initial casts. FCFS... so easy even brain dead people could do that. DK tanking is also a breeze I don't see the crack with Pally Tanks for AoE, DK is where its at. Smashing out 7k dps in heroics on trash as a frost tank is nice, 12-14k in raids is even better. (Howling Blast Crits are a bit OP)

Now because i get 6k dps in heroics as a tank and pure dps'ers only get 3-4k ... i can link meters and say they were rubbish? I think not. When tanking Emalon's adds its likely if a DK or Paly is tanking then they will hit around 4-5k dps and thats just from AoE.

And about the thing about being on top by a long shot, maybe players you pug with just are not good? I used to think i was imba when wotlk launched and was smashing around 4-5k dps in nax with the Beastial Wrath and Readiness Spec in pugs even after it was nerfed i was still pushing good numbers... The fact was simple you never get decent players in pugs and you are well lucky if you do, people who spend time selecting players for Pugs tend to be more comepetitive when it comes to damange meters. I have done ToC25 a few times in pugs where the RL spends time selecting players, at the end the dps/damage done of usualy the top 6 players is very close and competitive. Most of the time there is not a player who is heads and shoulders above the others. Generally really really good players are in the Top guilds on servers and you rarely see them in pugs as they mostly do guild runs (people with the same mentality and competitiveness).

In the end Linking meters to show your on top by a long shot in pugs essentially does not show anything, you may miss buffs or the raid setup may favour buffs your way. I would rather look at meters from guild runs to decide because usually players are at the a similar level in terms of Gear and skill, If your topping meters fight after fight in guild runs and you are head and shoulders above the rest of your guildmates then either you are imba too imba or your fellow guildies are not at the same level as you are. Any Tom, Dick or Harry bash a few buttons and faceroll to number 1 spot especially Hunters, Pallys and DKs (3 easiest classes to play imo)

[Slane]

The game is not the same game it used to be, that seems to be the only answer to your complaining.

The game has went downhill. But it has to survive and maintain it's "11 million player" database. If that means making gear stupidly easy to get, then that's what it means. Which is an complete shame and disgrace.

[TrueMonolith]

The game has went downhill. But it has to survive and maintain it's "11 million player" database. If that means making gear stupidly easy to get, then that's what it means. Which is an complete shame and disgrace.

You know...i find the people that say this often lack i nthe gear department.

My gear consists of the ilevel 245, some ilevel 251 and 1 piece of ilevel 264 gears and i love that i can get my alts up to a ilevel 232 or ilevel 245 level with relative ease.

The gear difference still exists, except instead of it being ilevel 54-60 vs ilevel 88(at level 60), ilevel 142 and ilevel174(level 70)...the difference is now between ilevel 232 and ilevel 264.

Players are defined by skill instead of gear. This is a large reason why the player base is growing...because skill means more and more in WoW these days, instead of less.

[SimplySchizo]

I agree with Slane.

Blizzard knows theyre coming up on the final stretch and are milking the game in every way possible.

Pve to PVP Xfers, Race changes. Even Faction/sex changes all for $. Things no one ever envisioned them doing. All available now for the $ vacuum.

Yea players are defined by skill, but you cant tell by looking at their gear like one once was able to. Instead you have to risk grouping with them and running them through a fine mesh to see if theyre any good. screw the ongoing tryout sessions. More like a game of roulette.

The game was fun while it lasted. Had some great memorable moments with a great group of people met ingame. which i still keep in touch with.

I stopped back in April and im finally coming around to putting my 8 toon accnt on craigslist for whatever I can get.

[the evn show]

Players are defined by skill instead of gear. This is a large reason why the player base is growing...because skill means more and more in WoW these days, instead of less.

Do year really think that someone who's never played warcraft is standing in EB and saying "Hrm?this looks like a game where the gear you wear has little baring on your performance: it's all skill, and that's the game for me!"

More realistically it's something along the lines of "Hey Jim, why don't you play warcraft with us? It's super easy to get caught up and we can help you level. You can join us killing dragons on wednesday nights during the bowling offseason." You could re-roll with 9 friends today and be back in icecown inside of a month.

More of the game is accessible to more of the people, and when you tack on the effect of having a very large user base (ie: if you know somebody playing a game like this, chances are 15:1 that they're playing wacraft) it's sort of a self sustaining industry.

As for the game going down hill: I'm not prepared to make that argument. It's different. I'd say I find it way less fun than I used to, but I was always one of those wierdos (<1% of players were doing the thing I was). Now we have what seems like everybody raiding "current-ish" content and 20%+ of raid guilds actually clearing endgame zones. If I step back and realize that Blizzard's goal isn't to make me have fun, it's to make most of their players have fun - I think they've had a huge success.

I might not be the centre of attention any more and I might not find it as fun as it used to be, but on the whole I think the game community is much healthier now than it was in classic or TBC.

[Noveed]

I think the bottom line is that content is easier to obtain than it was, in addition to that players even casuals like myself will see end game bosses like arthas ;P

[dead.cell]

I can't help but laugh at the fact that some are questioning how doing heroics again and again is "meaningful", yet act as if Ulduar and the like being done again and again is supposed to be anywhat different.

It's the same goddamn thing. Difference is, you don't have to apply to a dumb guild, filled with at least one guaranteed egotistical jackass, and schedule your life about. And of course, the politics of it all, as with every guild. Oh oh, let's also not forget the one guy who will probably spend 15 minutes explaining a fight, and then 20 minutes more each and every time the team wipes.

lol, raiding drove my friend away from WoW to the point that he sold his account. He started up again and quit after doing Ulduar so many times. We now sit in a 4 man guild, consisting of only real life friends where we can truly enjoy playing with each other, pugging each night working on our emblems of frost little by little. We'll have our new cloaks tomorrow after pugging the weekly raid at least. :)

The point is, we're able to truly enjoy ourselves. I don't see why this is so hard for some people to grasp. The better gear will always be there, available to those who choose to get it. I don't see why everyone should have to be so limited because of the few who decided to pull their hair out each night. Honestly, if you're working that hard on a video game to the point to where you're not having fun, you probably shouldn't be playing the game. I mean, your in-game achievements will only show for so long. Then what? :huh:

TL;DR: Lighten up.

[ANON86364]

I can't help but laugh at the fact that some are questioning how doing heroics again and again is "meaningful", yet act as if Ulduar and the like being done again and again is supposed to be anywhat different.

It's the same goddamn thing. Difference is, you don't have to apply to a dumb guild, filled with at least one guaranteed egotistical jackass, and schedule your life about. And of course, the politics of it all, as with every guild. Oh oh, let's also not forget the one guy who will probably spend 15 minutes explaining a fight, and then 20 minutes more each and every time the team wipes.

lol, raiding drove my friend away from WoW to the point that he sold his account. He started up again and quit after doing Ulduar so many times. We now sit in a 4 man guild, consisting of only real life friends where we can truly enjoy playing with each other, pugging each night working on our emblems of frost little by little. We'll have our new cloaks tomorrow after pugging the weekly raid at least. :)

The point is, we're able to truly enjoy ourselves. I don't see why this is so hard for some people to grasp. The better gear will always be there, available to those who choose to get it. I don't see why everyone should have to be so limited because of the few who decided to pull their hair out each night. Honestly, if you're working that hard on a video game to the point to where you're not having fun, you probably shouldn't be playing the game. I mean, your in-game achievements will only show for so long. Then what? :huh:

TL;DR: Lighten up.

It really sounds like you've had some bad personal experiences with your previous guild. Arguing small opinions is pointless. evn. is right in his point that the game is different now than it used to be. I don't enjoy playing as much as I once did but I don't have another game I'd like to play more. So props goes out to Blizzard for making a game that can appease the masses and merely "keep" the overachievers.

[Treemonkeys]

The point is, we're able to truly enjoy ourselves. I don't see why this is so hard for some people to grasp. The better gear will always be there, available to those who choose to get it. I don't see why everyone should have to be so limited because of the few who decided to pull their hair out each night. Honestly, if you're working that hard on a video game to the point to where you're not having fun, you probably shouldn't be playing the game. I mean, your in-game achievements will only show for so long. Then what? :huh:

Well to some people the fun is in the challenge. The meta game slowly disappears as the game gets easier and it becomes more and more of a game with mindless clicking and keyboard strokes. It is simply much more of a farming game now when at 60 it was more of a group co-op raiding game. I really liked the game before everyone had it down to a "science", before there were threat meters, before there were proper "rotations" for everyone to copy like monkeys, before there were boss strats out before the patch even came out. I liked being in one of the top guilds on the server not because of epeen but because we actually had to learn things on our own as new content was released. What you consider to be pulling your hair out each night to me is the reward of finally killing a very hard boss after a few weeks of attempts and then being rewarded with the best loot in the game. Killing a boss a couple weeks after the content was released with a pickup group doesn't replace that.

Now don't get me wrong I can see why you enjoy the game as it is, I can understand the appeal, I will probably even continue to reactivate from time to time but it only takes me about a month to get through the new content, and then I get bored and quit. The game is far too gimmicky to hold my attention like it did in the classic days.

[DrCheese]

Yea players are defined by skill, but you cant tell by looking at their gear like one once was able to

oh come on, it was never *that* hard to get tier 1/2/3 gear in the original game. The prime blocker of it was simply time and the ability to organise (Guild management felt like a second job in HR), not pure skill. Heck, we had people in our guild who were down right terrible but we took simply to make the numbers up. We still managed to complete the entire original game. So no, it's not a recent thing for gear to not = skill.

The old style raiding was designed at a time when MMO's gained around 100,000 players max, most of which were "hardcore" who would stay with the game for years and had the ability to invest hundreds of hours in it. It made perfect sense to design content based around them. However given wow's casual population explosion, it made zero sense to continue to design content for the smaller "hardcore" base who like to run around feeling l33t because they have X/Y/Z gear.

What you consider to be pulling your hair out each night to me is the reward of finally killing a very hard boss after a few weeks of attempts and then being rewarded with the best loot in the game

Again, as above your in the minority and it makes no sense to design content around that. Designing the majority of end game content for the few who have gobs of time to waste on "attempts" is just bad business practise.

[Treemonkeys]

Again, as above your in the minority and it makes no sense to design content around that. Designing the majority of end game content for the few who have gobs of time to waste on "attempts" is just bad business practise.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, of course it makes business sense to make the game easier. You aren't going to have everyone and their moms playing a game that is really challenging. The sky is also blue.

It is funny though that you say wasting time on attempts, the whole game is a waste of time, it's not like you are going to turn a profit unless you are a Chinese farmer. My time is not better spent because I earned X emblems of whatever for it.

[ANON86364]

Another point: One way Blizzard has tried to differentiate hardcore raiders from casuals is hard mode achievements/titles, obviously. Ulduar hard modes were/are awesome. The idea behind some of the encounters are very fun ie, Heartbreaker, Firefighter, and One, Two and Three Lights in the Darkness. All these encounters do differ greatly from the original straight forward encounter. Sartharion with 3 drakes in 25 man was very hard when it was current content - my guild didn't even get it. What really bothers me is Blizzard doesn't take the rewards for these away when when they introduce whole tiers of content beyond that encounter. Now, you have PUG groups getting "of the Nightfall" titles. It's ridiculous. It's like they have complete disregard for anyone who actually prefers to bust their ass for achievements at the time they are actually challenging.

[the evn show]

oh come on, it was never *that* hard to get tier 1/2/3 gear in the original game.

Tier 1 was "reasonably" available but beyond that you'll find gear was very rare. Some time after AQ came out one of the developers commented that less than 1% of the players had seen Nefarian's balcony and that they intended to make raiding more accessible in future expansions.

The prime blocker of it was simply time and the ability to organise (Guild management felt like a second job in HR), not pure skill. Heck, we had people in our guild who were down right terrible but we took simply to make the numbers up. We still managed to complete the entire original game. So no, it's not a recent thing for gear to not = skill.

If organization was the only difficult part of content then any guild capable of clearing Molten Core would have gone on to clear Naxxramus. Clearly there was something more involved because so many guilds could scrape together the people to go kill Ragnaross but would never make it past Vael, or Chromaggus, or Princess Huhu, or Horsemen, or?

We had some terribles in our guild too, but for the most part I'd say the raid was competent - and even our terrible players were gods compared to the keyboard-turning fire-standers that you saw failing in other guilds.

It wasn't until late AQ40 and the back end of Naxx that blizzard started playing the "If one person screws up then you all die" card in every other encounter. At first it was limited to a few key roles (ie: dispelers on Noth) and then worked out to involving more of the raid (ie: bombs/ccing adds on KT). TBC took that ball and ran with it in a big way. Reverse twins in Sunwell 'felt' like you were wiping for 6 minutes and just barely hanging on - there hasn't really been an encounter like that since.

Of course there was Archimonde, M'uru, and pre-nerf Kael/Vashj, Gruul, etc. which felt much more controlled until one thing went wrong - you do sort of get that sense in some of the hard modes (our gm said no-lights yogg felt that way: you're in control, but only barely - I haven't done that encounter).

These days you can clear through normal modes with a couple of players dead and there are relatively few gimmicks that lead to instant raid death. That's a level of forgiveness that just didn't exist in the old days and it makes things much more accessible. I don't think it's a bad thing to have an easy-mode available, I just dislike that "hard mode" is rehashed easy mode: by the time you get to the challenging encounter it's all old hat.

[+SOOPRcow MVC]

You could be in full iLvl 258 gear (i'm not counting ICC since only partial loot tables is out there atm), all of it being heroic and it doesn't even stand a chance against someone showing you full T3 (back when 60 was level cap). Gear is to easy to get and the notion that your gear iLvl's show you are geared is completly wrong.

Heh, I still walk around with my full 9/9 Tier 3 set. Dreamwalker is so awesome looking :)

oh come on, it was never *that* hard to get tier 1/2/3 gear in the original game. The prime blocker of it was simply time and the ability to organise (Guild management felt like a second job in HR), not pure skill.

Yeah, and now its worse... we have artificial progression stops because the boss fights are so easy. I'd rather have to put effort into something and fail a crap load of times then have to put no effort and just wait around to do the next stuff.

Edited December 22, 2009 by SOOPRcow

[the evn show]

Heh, I still walk around with my full 9/9 Tier 3 set. Dreamwalker is so awesome looking :)

Which guild did you raid with to get it?

There's somebody I know who still does that too (9/9 + Aetish). I'm a sucker for full Absolution with Anathema - but dreamwalker was pretty bad-ass too.

[+SOOPRcow MVC]

Which guild did you raid with to get it?

There's somebody I know who still does that too (9/9 + Aetish). I'm a sucker for full Absolution with Anathema - but dreamwalker was pretty bad-ass too.

Insomnia of Tichondrius. I had server second full 9/9 (server first for dreamwalker)

[the evn show]

Insomnia of Tichondrius. I had server second full 9/9 (server first for dreamwalker)

I figured you might be somebody in my guild now: whitelady from Eternals on Shadowmoon

[nubs]

I am one of those guys who is now getting tier 9 gear by running relatively easy instances. I know they are relatively easy because they are certainly not as frustrating as running onyxia before everyone knew how to or running molten core when it first opened up. The only difficulty I now find in this game is against players who have significantly better gear in pvp and those teams that actually organize to win. The game itself is no longer challenging but the players you are up against certainly are. I understand the want to keep the game challenging but the developers have to sell to the masses, not the elite 1%.

On an unrelated note, I wonder what we can expect from future expansions in terms of PVP. I would really like to see some open PVP content that allows for guilds to own property. The property should give it?s owners a large advantage and the faction a smaller but still very important bonus as well.

I?d also like to see the crafting system expanded to allow for experimentation. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Minifig]

After 7 months of trying, I finally, FINALLY downed Malygos last night and got my " Of the Frozen Wastes " title.

I am SO happy that is done and over with.

Also, if anyone wants to check out the guild I co-run *practically run, because the leader is so busy with work a lot of the time.*, feel free, right here.

[dead.cell]

I am one of those guys who is now getting tier 9 gear by running relatively easy instances. I know they are relatively easy because they are certainly not as frustrating as running onyxia before everyone knew how to or running molten core when it first opened up. The only difficulty I now find in this game is against players who have significantly better gear in pvp and those teams that actually organize to win. The game itself is no longer challenging but the players you are up against certainly are. I understand the want to keep the game challenging but the developers have to sell to the masses, not the elite 1%.

On an unrelated note, I wonder what we can expect from future expansions in terms of PVP. I would really like to see some open PVP content that allows for guilds to own property. The property should give it?s owners a large advantage and the faction a smaller but still very important bonus as well.

I?d also like to see the crafting system expanded to allow for experimentation. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

I don't see why one guild should have a "large advantage" over others, as that would only create an imbalance which would make it harder for others to compete against. Honestly, I feel a slight edge would be better, perhaps with some sort of status symbol or mount even which displays such triumph. For instance, maybe something along the lines of how paladin horses look, with the guild emblem on its armor or something of that sort. Just some thoughts.

Totally agree on the crafting system though. It could use some expansion to it, beyond more recipes / formulas and yet another 75 point extension. :\

[_neutrino Veteran]

i do not want to sound like i am against the current crafting system or to say i like everquest (Which i do not) however i think they can learn a lot from the ever quest crafting system.