official World of Warcraft

[Minifig]

Hell no, if I could've sold it for THAT much, I would've sold it without a doubt in my mind. Great boost, sure, but I've still got professions among many other things I still need to work on. :/

Couldn't .. it was a PUG, and everyone was throwing a hissy fit.. even though I won the roll fair and square.

[gigapixels Veteran]

Well if you roll Need (or just roll, if we're talking about a raid) on a BoE item, I can imagine they'd want you to equip it right away. Even if it was an upgrade, people could still roll Need and say it's an upgrade, but go and sell it anyway. It's pretty common practice to equip BoE stuff as soon as you get it.

[Stokkolm]

If you won that roll fair and square I would tell them to go fly a kite. Like you said, it was a PUG, just leave the group if they are going to be stupid about it.

[Gerowen]

Don't worry too much about it, you'll get plate pieces from quests and stuff, and once you get to Outlands the greens you get from quests there will be better than the blues you can find in old world anyway.

[I am Redbeard]

http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&am...ame=Dominatious

14th Ranked Survival Hunter on Maelstrom, Horde side.

Before it's brought up Skill > Gear yadda yadda ect. whatever. Clearly someone with almost all 245 gear has skill.

[Stokkolm]

http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&am...ame=Dominatious

14th Ranked Survival Hunter on Maelstrom, Horde side.

Before it's brought up Skill > Gear yadda yadda ect. whatever. Clearly someone with almost all 245 gear has skill.

Not after 3.3 so much, you can get a bunch of 245 pieces now from the vendors, clearly not a ton of skill involved in farming emblems of triumph.

[Treemonkeys]

Not after 3.3 so much, you can get a bunch of 245 pieces now from the vendors, clearly not a ton of skill involved in farming emblems of triumph.

Even before 3.3 getting 245 gear was laughably easy, unless you were doing hard modes there wasn't much skill involved and even then the game is still primarily just a time sink with little to do with skill. I was really amazing at how easy they made the tier 9 stuff, the game just keeps getting easier.

[Noveed]

http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&am...ame=Dominatious

14th Ranked Survival Hunter on Maelstrom, Horde side.

Before it's brought up Skill > Gear yadda yadda ect. whatever. Clearly someone with almost all 245 gear has skill.

My arguament once again, if you are using wow-heroes to check rating, that fails. It uses cached scores and only displays players on the ranked lists that have been searched on wow-heroes before. There are players who have never been searched upon wow-heroes that will not display on the list.

245 Gear Pre 3.3 was easily attainable (VoA25 for the 2PC T9, Ony10/25 for the Neck when u get the head, badge farming from Daily Heroics, VoA, ToC coupled with a few Trophies and ya laughing. Not to mention that ToC25 was extremely easy to pug and farm on a weekly basis. A Few people in my Guild with gearscore (not wh score) of 2800 were getting carried and picking up imba lootz!)

There was a DK tank on my realm fully kitted on with ilvl245 gear had around 43khp unbuffed... absolute nublet got riddiculed in trade and got carried by grps name change and realm transfer saved his @$$ from getting owned in trade lol

[the evn show]

There was a DK tank on my realm fully kitted on with ilvl245 gear had around 43khp unbuffed... absolute nublet got riddiculed in trade and got carried by grps name change and realm transfer saved his @$$ from getting owned in trade lol

Likewise, there's a guy on my server that has bought things like the achievement-drakes, titles, and sets of gear from my guild.

You'll often see him in trade chat putting together a pug for 'crumby' content and then getting made to look like a fool by the general populous. "All that gear and you can't break 3,000 DPS on Thaddius?" I'm not sure how widely known it is that he's bought his achievements but there are often snide comments in guild chat whenever he's seen spamming general with "looking for more: Nax25 immortal run - must be geared, pst achievements & spec".

IMO you've got to be some sort of a jerk to demand from others what you can't, or aren't willing to offer.

Unrelated, ran into this druid random pugging on my mage. Great guy - knew how to play, relaxed attitude. I was in a 4-man group with real-life friends and he hopped in via the random dungeon finder. We blew a couple of hours queueing together, banging out achievements, chatting, and generally just having a good time.

It's things like that which make the dungeon finder awesome. It's not all 800 DPS rogues and 19,000 HP tanks.

[I am Redbeard]

K.

Talking about the random people, the outliers, who buy gear, get carried and as you said, have no skill, is a pointless thing here.

Theres a screen shot from Koralon. Yes, a pug. Yes, single target DPS. Not AoE. In the guild runs I've been in (Woe, Forged Fury, Dark Chaos and RI Alt Runs) (the top guilds on Maelstrom), I am still near the top of the meters.

[I am Redbeard]

It uses cached scores and only displays players on the ranked lists that have been searched on wow-heroes before. There are players who have never been searched upon wow-heroes that will not display on the list.

It uses data from the Armory, not individual name searches. I'm not sure where you got that from. It gives you (if you click live, or Fresh Armory Data) the latest information from the Armory, nothing more, nothing less. If I log out in my PvP gear my score drops to about 2100.

[the evn show]

Talking about the random people, the outliers, who buy gear, get carried and as you said, have no skill, is a pointless thing here.

Theres a screen shot from Koralon. Yes, a pug. Yes, single target DPS. Not AoE. In the guild runs I've been in (Woe, Forged Fury, Dark Chaos and RI Alt Runs) (the top guilds on Maelstrom), I am still near the top of the meters.

I don't think people are saying "you don't have skill" they're taking with the statement "Gear of <quality x> is proof of skill".

Is there some gear that shows that "this person probably has skill"? Maybe. Probably.

But I don't think there are many people sympathetic to the notion that ToC25 or ICC loot fits that criteria.

[ANON86364]

Regarding the practically free hand outs of every content tier: It, more than anything, has really disappointed me. A primary reason I even started playing the game in BC was the feeling of "wow, I'll really need to work hard to get what those people have". "Those people" being hard core raiders with the awesome looking Warlock T6. I still reminisce that feeling; it probably will never be experienced again in WoW.

Now, with the introduction of this new emblem staging philosophy, everyone can get the same gear that my guild and I worked so hard to get just one patch earlier. Now, everyone looks the same, with the same gear. Tier gear no less!It has happened three times now this expansion. We worked for T7, then 3.1 came out and everyone was able to farm pathetically easy heroics for the same gear. Same thing for 3.2, and now 3.3. ToC was ridiculous. An absolute joke. That place is so straight forward they practically made it for no one but retards.

They say they want to release content quickly so players don't get bored. But the main reason ToC was so agonizing was they had 4 different versions of the same content! 10 man regular/heroic and 25 man regular/heroic. The only difference between regulars and heroics was the massive hits the tanks would receive as well as the huge DPS check. A joke ToC was.

I made an alt Paladin which has almost all 232/T9 gear for both Prot and Holy. He has never once cleared Naxxramas, Ulduar. That, is broken in my eyes.

Yes, this is probably considered a nerdrage, but whatever. I'm sure I'm not alone.

[gigapixels Veteran]

I agree it's easy to get gear now, but it is intentional. It's not only helpful for new players but also for experienced players gearing alts that recently got to 80.

If I knew I had to gear up through heroics, then Naxx, then Uld, then ToC just to run ICC when I got my warrior to 80, I probably wouldn't put the effort in. It's a lot of work and I wouldn't be able to put enough time into it while still raiding on my main. I'll probably do those raids for fun, but I am glad I won't have to spend several weeks hoping for the right gear to drop in each raid.

It has made it easy for bad players to get gear as well, but I honestly think the benefits outweigh the consequences. Luckily, most bad players will become well known on the server anyway, and you likely won't have to deal with them more than once or twice.

[ANON86364]

I agree it's easy to get gear now, but it is intentional. It's not only helpful for new players but also for experienced players gearing alts that recently got to 80.

If I knew I had to gear up through heroics, then Naxx, then Uld, then ToC just to run ICC when I got my warrior to 80, I probably wouldn't put the effort in. It's a lot of work and I wouldn't be able to put enough time into it while still raiding on my main. I'll probably do those raids for fun, but I am glad I won't have to spend several weeks hoping for the right gear to drop in each raid.

It has made it easy for bad players to get gear as well, but I honestly think the benefits outweigh the consequences. Luckily, most bad players will become well known on the server anyway, and you likely won't have to deal with them more than once or twice.

I can definitely see the other side's point of view. My emphasis is on "tier" gear. In BC you could farm badges but not to buy tier gear. Towards the end of BC, the badge gear was equivalent to T5/T6 content so it was by no means crappy, it just wasn't tier. And as far as farming badges the content was more challenging and DIVERSE which is hugely lacking now.

And to add to this, the concept of "buying" gear sounds so cheap to me. Another example from BC: you couldn't buy almost every piece of gear to match the current content level. It's very effortless now.

Edited December 21, 2009 by lord_xenos

[Shadrack]

I can definitely see the other side's point of view. My emphasis is on "tier" gear. In BC you could farm badges but not to buy tier gear. Towards the end of BC, the badge gear was equivalent to T5/T6 content so it was by no means crappy, it just wasn't tier. And as far as farming badges the content was more challenging and DIVERSE which is hugely lacking now.

And to add to this, the concept of "buying" gear sounds so cheap to me. Another example from BC: you couldn't buy almost every piece of gear to match the current content level. It's very effortless now.

I completely agree with you. I wish they would have added higher difficulty modes to the dungeons with the introduction of new emblems.

In BC, someone's gear represented their progression through the PvE raid content (and most likely their skill in their class).

[I am Redbeard]

I hate the term effortless. It's far too relative and situational to hold and weight.

I took a break during the summer, 3 months or so. When I came back conquest badges had been switched to heroics and heroism/valor had gone by the way side. So, I skipped the tail end of Ulduar. At the time, the best polearms (2 handed weapons in general) came from Ulduar.. and I never got one of them. I was stuck with the staff from H VH. When H-ToC came out I ran it, literally, every day for 3 and 1/2 weeks (25 days), and never saw Marrowstrike. Marrowstrike is a 219 ilevel piece. Did I put effort in to getting it? Yes. Would anyone have known, if I got it? No.

Gear doesn't come with a "x player spent y days trying to get this piece" tag on it.

What do you constitute as effort?

[Slane]

What do you constitute as effort?

A challenge to get gear.

Getting screwed by RNG isn't a challenge and putting time into a game to run a quick heroic doesn't constitute as a mighty effort.

[ANON86364]

I hate the term effortless. It's far too relative and situational to hold and weight.

I took a break during the summer, 3 months or so. When I came back conquest badges had been switched to heroics and heroism/valor had gone by the way side. So, I skipped the tail end of Ulduar. At the time, the best polearms (2 handed weapons in general) came from Ulduar.. and I never got one of them. I was stuck with the staff from H VH. When H-ToC came out I ran it, literally, every day for 3 and 1/2 weeks (25 days), and never saw Marrowstrike. Marrowstrike is a 219 ilevel piece. Did I put effort in to getting it? Yes. Would anyone have known, if I got it? No.

Gear doesn't come with a "x player spent y days trying to get this piece" tag on it.

What do you constitute as effort?

That hits exactly another point. The game has equated effort with time spent which is ludicrous in comparison to BC. Each new content release is not much more difficult than the previous when it came out. ie, Ulduar was as hard as Naxxramas was when each was released.

So did you put in effort trying to get Marrowstrike? By my definition, no. All you had to do was be diligent every day to get into ToC. This isn't against you. When I got my Worldcarver from Ignis, I don't consider much effort was required, just patience.

A challenge to get gear.

Getting screwed by RNG isn't a challenge and putting time into a game to run a quick heroic doesn't constitute as a mighty effort.

Exactly! You got this in before I had I chance to, darn you.

[Noveed]

It uses data from the Armory, not individual name searches. I'm not sure where you got that from. It gives you (if you click live, or Fresh Armory Data) the latest information from the Armory, nothing more, nothing less. If I log out in my PvP gear my score drops to about 2100.

>< You are missing the point, Totally

When you search for a player it updates the cache with the latest data update from the armory. I hope you get that part

If a player has never been looked up on wow-heroes then there will be no data for that player at all no score, nothing on wow-heroes what so ever.... because he has not been looked up. Again i hope you are following...

Which is why i said there will be players on your server/battlegroup which WoW-heroes does not have data for. If a player does not have any data on wow-heroes then they will not show up on these "ranked" lists you are referring to, and believe me there are quite a few characters out there who have not been looked up by wow-heroes. My previous guild master (the sad git he was) weekly updated the wow-heroes cache by searching for all the raiders in the guild and updating thier scores for them, this was because a few people did not show on the guild search on wow heroes, even though they existed and were real players in the guild, once he searched for them then they showed up in the guild roster on wow-heroes also.

Linking Damage meters is not a show of skill imo, anyone can do it,

i linked my damage meters a while back

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...amp;p=591924448

However since then the logs have expired Here is a screenie, 7.2k dps (on korolarn) in gear i had 2 months ago, gear inferior to yours back then... infact still my gear is inferior after i checked your armory. But does that mean I am a less skill full player than you are?

Link to my Armory (Main) : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xm...mrage&n=nav

I rarely raid now on the hunter due to the guild being very social casual, will throw in a few ToC10/25s here and there but im gearing my Pally and DK in random hcs, i may go back to giving the hunter some time once the guild start making some solid progress in 25 man icc.

Link to Armory (1st Alt): http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xm...p;n=Fusi%C3%B3n (Sits at about 36.5k unbuffed, still a work in progress)

Link to Armory (2nd Alt): http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xm...ge&n=bobfoc ( Will eventually be Ret and Holy, currently working on Ret gear, once im satisfied then will start working on the holy side )

Got a mage and shammy also coming up in the ranks will be some time before they see the light at the end of the tunnel at level 80.

Feel free to comment/bash.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Noveed

[ANON86364]

>< You are missing the point, Totally

When you search for a player it updates the cache with the latest data update from the armory. I hope you get that part

If a player has never been looked up on wow-heroes then there will be no data for that player at all no score, nothing on wow-heroes what so ever.... because he has not been looked up. Again i hope you are following...

Which is why i said there will be players on your server/battlegroup which WoW-heroes does not have data for. If a player does not have any data on wow-heroes then they will not show up on these "ranked" lists you are referring to, and believe me there are quite a few characters out there who have not been looked up by wow-heroes. My previous guild master (the sad git he was) weekly updated the wow-heroes cache by searching for all the raiders in the guild and updating thier scores for them, this was because a few people did not show on the guild search on wow heroes, even though they existed and were real players in the guild, once he searched for them then they showed up in the guild roster on wow-heroes also.

There is a check box when searching a guild on a server to load the roster from WoW Armory. This check box is not currently present and hasn't been for about a week or so, but it did exist. Although, you would then have to manually update this new character for it to be up to date.

[gigapixels Veteran]

There is a check box when searching a guild on a server to load the roster from WoW Armory. This check box is not currently present and hasn't been from about a week or so, but it did exist. Although, you would then have to manually update this new character for it to be up to date.

That's just a single guild though.

If you try to see what rank you are in your server, you could have people who have never checked or haven't checked for months, and therefore have a cached score that you're comparing to or don't even show in the rankings. WoW-Heroes does not cache those scores if people don't actively check and therefore update/add their score. That's the problem with checking your rank... unless you want to go through with a list of every 80 on your server and check them yourself.

[Noveed]

There is a check box when searching a guild on a server to load the roster from WoW Armory. This check box is not currently present and hasn't been for about a week or so, but it did exist. Although, you would then have to manually update this new character for it to be up to date.

I have seen it before and wondered myself where it went, in addition to that though I was talking from past experiences, unless wow-heroes is constantly scanning/crawling the armory (which i doubt) it will not have a database for all the players (like every single level 80 who is active) cached. From what i can make out the only time a record is update/created for a character is when someone looks them up on wow-heroes.

That's just a single guild though.

If you try to see what rank you are in your server, you could have people who have never checked or haven't checked for months, and therefore have a cached score that you're comparing to or don't even show in the rankings. WoW-Heroes does not cache those scores if people don't actively check and therefore update/add their score. That's the problem with checking your rank... unless you want to go through with a list of every 80 on your server and check them yourself.

Thankyou, I tried explaining it like that but got confused myself, nice to see someone understands where I am coming from lol.

[gigapixels Veteran]

Just to clarify: WoW-Heroes only knows about players that have actually been checked on WoW-Heroes. It does not crawl the armory once a week to update, or ever, for that matter.

Thankyou, I tried explaining it like that but got confused myself, nice to see someone understands where I am coming from lol.

No worries, it's not easy to explain.

[ANON86364]

That's just a single guild though.

If you try to see what rank you are in your server, you could have people who have never checked or haven't checked for months, and therefore have a cached score that you're comparing to or don't even show in the rankings. WoW-Heroes does not cache those scores if people don't actively check and therefore update/add their cached score. That's the problem with checking your rank.

Yes, of course. I was just correcting what seemed like an error in the information given. That is, you can search a guild on a server and have the "live" box checked to get an updated roster, not necessarily updated members. If I missed some context here I apologize.