Vista, Office 2007 cracked. Kind of.

[Scirwode]

You're a honest man, that's good for you. But is the software giant honest with you? You decide. It's good that we have good people, who have their beliefs, but that doesn't stop others from seeking truth and pushing further.

Like stealing a car is a bad analogy. It's not the same thing. Microsoft has no alternative. Making the price higher isn't the right thing to do. It's just not efficient for consumers who have no choice. Government should finance half of Microsoft's losses, but they don't. That's why we have no real choice and high prices = high piracy.

People need to know why they need to pay big money and why the company that is working in favor of other's is charging them more and getting more overall.

You misunderstood me, I am not saying they should give you a life-long support, I am just saying that their support is only so much. It's not full support.

Just tell me, what is more profitable for you if you were Microsoft: make updates for software that you have already sold, or make new software and sell that for another price (even the same)?

Yes, I know the answer, but that is def. at an expense of consumers. That's not efficient for a company that is only one in the market.

It doesn't matter if they're not honest with me. What does matter is how you conduct yourself to others. Maybe they have made a lot of things that annoy me, in which case there are quite a few good reasons for it. But then you have to take into consideration that there are many things that effect the price point of Windows Vista. The rising prices of fuel for one thing which affects electricity charges. Or how the economy has fared considering the Iraq War and the uncertainty in the Middle East.

They have special teams that take into consideration the price of the software and how they can recuperate their losses. You say the government should help take their losses but that is what your government should be doing. The Malaysian government supports Malaysia Airlines, Proton and Petronas and look how far they have gone. In a way, it is your governments fault that it has come to this. They should have monitored and possibly put a ceiling price for every software they sold, just like how the Malaysian government conduct these corporations.

In a way, it's sad that it has come to this, but I rather be honest in what I do. Some may think otherwise but those are the people who wish to have a high lifestyle but knowing they can't afford for it, steal to make it happen.

I understand your arguments and support them if it means changes for the better. I can also understand that since we have no choice other than Windows, that is all we get. So it must be your duty to ensure that your government does something to make sure that it is a win-win situation for both of us. Until then, we all have to follow the rules and the rules say that piracy is wrong, and so abide by those rules.

Scirwode

[the evn show]

If I can't afford a chocolate bar, I don't steal it. If I can't afford a piece of software, I don't steal that either.

No, but you might commit copyright infringement and use a copy without a license. The penalties for stealing software (smashing the window to a compu-hut and making off with a stack of Windows boxes) are the same as they are for stealing any other item. If you were to steal a chocolate bar you remove an item from the possession of another, you make it impossible for somebody else to eat or sell that chocolate bar. Pirating a copy of Windows does not prevent anybody else form using or selling their copy of Windows.

Laws exist in most countries to deal with copyright infringement and with theft.

People always bitch and moan about the cost of software, yet they don't realize the cost of _making_ said software.

Microsoft makes about 85% margin on Windows (source). At the company I work 75% margin is the goal. Not that making a profit justifies stealing software or commiting copyright infringement, but to say imply that the cost of software is high because it's expensive to produce isn't accurate. Windows costs what it does because that's the price the market will bare.

I'm fairly well payed and I have fairly nice hardware at work but the programmers at our company see less than 10% of the income our company makes in the form of benefits or pay. The bulk of our income is profit, and that's paying for my bosses' bosses' boat. It's putting our shareholders children through ivy league schools. It's going to pay for the Directors of Sales' ranch and the advertising executives 6-series.

Software authors are real people with real daily lives. Just as you value your money, so do they.

When you pirate a program that even costs as little as $25, you could be stealing $25 from someone's family.

Well, I make software for a living and I'll take home my salary this year whether somebody uses a copy without a license or if everybody decides to pay double on their invoices. Copyright infringement doesn't impact my paycheck unless it gets to the point that my company can no longer afford to employ me.

The people that do notice software piracy are the share holders, board of directors, and possibly the commission salesman (assuming that if people were unable to use unlicensed copies that they would all purchase software from us and not just use an alternative or do without). The people that earn more money based on the performance of our company are impacted. The only real way I can get a bonus based on the performance of software I design or build is by getting it out the door earlier.

Of course I don't speak for everybody involved in making software, but I figured the point of view of somebody that pays their bills by making the stuff might be valuable.

It's hardly worth addressing software theft as a drain on our company: everything we have is insured, if it was stolen it'd be replaced and apart from a few weeks of pressing new CDs and printing new manuals nobody would even notice.

[Deniss]

Microsoft has done nothing to support the lowest level of users. Nothing. All this MS Vista cut down version is just a poor excuse for being so good. That's the reality which leads to piracy.

[NeoTrunks]

Does the price really have anything to do with it? I remember when people would download cracks for Deadaim. That only costs $5. There are a lot of people that would get something for free no matter what, just because they can.

[liquidcore]

maybe because some families monthly income is 600$ or less? and they still need that software for work..

You can't get a job unless you have windows vista, or Office 2007 on your computer at home? hmmm, that doesn't sound right.. I missed that part of the application form at the grocery store, or as a salesman. If i put Windows Vista Ultimate Edition Owner on my resume i can finally get a job?

Piracy is a choice, you need it for work, then use it at work

[Deniss]

I understand your arguments and support them if it means changes for the better. I can also understand that since we have no choice other than Windows, that is all we get. So it must be your duty to ensure that your government does something to make sure that it is a win-win situation for both of us. Until then, we all have to follow the rules and the rules say that piracy is wrong, and so abide by those rules.

Scirwode

That's right EU is trying to do something against Microsoft. Thank God for that. We're at least going... somewhere.

You can't get a job unless you have windows vista, or Office 2007 on your computer at home? hmmm, that doesn't sound right.. I missed that part of the application form at the grocery store, or as a salesman. If i put Windows Vista Ultimate Edition Owner on my resume i can finally get a job?

That's as much fun as it is sad. Better applications require better software. That's the end fact. If you want to be competitive, you have to be up to date = buy vista, 3dsmax 25 and so on.

[Pitreck]

There are the people who will get it legitimately, giving the software industry momentum to continue making improvements and more versions. Then there are the people who don't give a crap whether the software costs 200$ or 9.95$. They'll pirate it anyway for a variety of reasons - too lazy to work and make money to buy the software, or they'll pirate a 1500$ suite of programs simply to brag to all their friends that "OMG, I have * and thus am leet, even though I don't know how to use it and probably never will learn!"

Lowering Vista's price by 100 or even 150$ won't do anything to bring it into the "price bracket" of people who would pirate it anyway. The mentality goes: If you could have a chocolate bar for free, or buy it for 10$, which would you choose? What if you could have the same bar for free, or pay 8$ for it? How about for free, or pay 4$ for it? The people who think it justifyable to steal will steal regardless of how much they'd need to pay to obtain the product legally.

Not true at all. I know personally I'd pay $9.95 or even $49.95 for an OS that is pretty much needed to run the programs I'd like to run. But when prices get as ridiculous as they are for Vista (unless you want a gimped version of the OS like Home Basic) then people can and will resort to piracy.

Same here, I could spent 50 or even 80$ for Windows, but not 200. I buy software and games that comes from my country, I buy foreign games if they are good and price is right, because software makers deserve support for their products, products that are good. But if price is too high, then sorry, it's just rape in the day.

[kyosuken]

gasp to many posters lol... nvm this ^^

[Daybreak]

Piracy is black and white. Honestly it is.

.....

I highly suggest you read the SIIA website for factual information, and to get yourself educated to the cold hard facts.

Since I'm neither American or European, I won't claim to know piracy levels there. But in Asia, piracy has gone down somewhat. Overe here, there used to be illegal vendors selling CDs chockful of software on the streets in blatant daylight, but with the various crackdowns, they have all but disappeared. Compared to syndicates that rake in tens/hundred of thousands of dollars a month selling pirated CDs, I guess those P2P sites are pretty much the lesser evil. Sure, downloading/torrenting has and will always be a problem, but ISPs have begun throttling down P2P as well and disconnecting violators, which pretty much means that piracy has gone down from its rampant heydays back in 2003/2004.

In any case, I would be loathe to trust the statistics from a blatantly anti-piracy site. And when I mentioned reduced piracy, I was doing so within the context of WGA, which judging from what I've seen on various boards such as Neowin, has indeed gotten people using illegal copies to buy legal ones - in effect reducing piracy.

I thought I come in and say a few things here. I come from a country where you can easily find a pirated version of Windows at a major shopping centre without any problems. They cost at the most RM5 which is about 2$ if I'm not mistaken. You're not only limited to OS as you can get games and software of just about any version and they will package it in a nice cover. That is how far piracy has gone from. Yet, I still use an original Windows, bought with my own money by saving from buying cheap food and walking to my university in KL instead of using the LRT.

....

Sure, the software is expensive and in a way it is buggy, but that does not give you any right to steal it. If they lower the price, then well done, I'm all for it. But I rather be an honest man with a clear conscience than a thief with no morals. You decide.

Scirwode

Despite my defending piracy, I pretty much use only legit software as well - my XP/Office licenses are valid, I bought WinRAR, owe all my games, and pay for a subscription to Object Desktop. I applaud you Scirwode, but let's face it, in this region, you and I are pretty much exceptions to the norm. Here, piracy is the ingrained way of life and going exclusively legit makes you stand out. But unlike you, I can pretty much empathize with my colleagues and classmates who pirate, especially when legitimate versions of Windows and Office represent a sizable chunk of a white collar worker's salary. As for the morals, as I've mentioned, nothing is in black or white. There is an element of slim (for most people anyway) moral injustice when pirating, but to go so far as to claim it makes you a thief with no morals is to swing to the extremes.

[PL_ Veteran]

I don't get it. How can these work if the Betas'RCs are timebombed? Surely they would be susceptible to expiring?

[NinjaGinger]

If I want the latest model car, I have to pay full price, but if I get the previous years model, I pay a hell of a lot less. Software is the same. Soon it will be time to buy Office 2003. A more sensible price will be paid. Period. Vista will be on my PC when it's more sensibly priced and if I have to wait, then wait I shall. Everything has a price I am willing to pay, if it's overpriced (Vista) then I wait.

[Scirwode]

That's right EU is trying to do something against Microsoft. Thank God for that. We're at least going... somewhere.

Their methods aren't exactly very good but they have a valid reason for it. I just wish the US government did something concrete instead of concentrating in Iraq, which is not justified I might add no matter what has been done in the past. It's time the US concentrate on what is happening inside their country instead of focusing on too many agenda overseas.

I just hope that it is not too late and that there doesn't exist some law which makes it impossible. I remember that Microsoft was nearly disbanded in 1999 due to the browser wars with Netscape. I believe it should have happen but the past is the past, time to focus on the now.

Scirwode

[Pitreck]

Why can't people who can't afford Vista just stick with XP? If you're complaining about having to upgrade software and hardware for something that you claim isn't worth it, then don't bother doing so.

I don't even have legit copy of Windows XP, so it not a matter of buying an upgrade or not, it's about being able to afford genuine version at all.

And really, if someone offered you 9.95$ for something that you've worked 40 hours a week on for the last 5 years, wouldn't you tell them to go to hell?

If my product would be able to sell in millions of copies worldwide just like XP, then 9.95 for box would be just fine for me :)

[liquidcore]

Microsoft makes about 85% margin on Windows (source). At the company I work 75% margin is the goal. Not that making a profit justifies stealing software or commiting copyright infringement, but to say imply that the cost of software is high because it's expensive to produce isn't accurate. Windows costs what it does because that's the price the market will bare.

The same article you quote (from 2002) also indicates the various losses that divisions within microsoft are making:

Microsoft's Business Solutions division, which includes software from its acquisitions of Great Plains and Navision as well as its bCentral offerings, reported an operating loss of $68m (?43m) for the quarter, on turnover of $107m.

For its recently formed CE/Mobility division, Microsoft reported a loss from operations of $33m (?21m) on revenue of $17m. The MSN unit, which offers Internet access services, incurred a loss of $97m (?61m) from operations on revenue of $531m.

Microsoft's home and entertainment division, which includes its Xbox video game products, incurred operating losses of $177m (?112m) in its first quarter on $505m in revenue. Microsoft launched its Xbox in November 2001.

Lets not forget the philanthropic side of Microsoft:

Microsoft Donates $344 Million in Software To Worldwide Initiative to Train 400,000 Teachers Source

Microsoft Donations Programs in the UK Source

Microsoft has pledged products valued at $25 million to TechSoup.org. Source

Its not all about profit my freind

[Pitreck]

Nothing is ever in black and white. Piracy is legally wrong, sure, but is it wholly morally wrong?

(A) Reproduction costs for such products are very low. Unlike say cars or hardware, essentially, once you recoup your R&D and marketing costs, each piece of software you sell is nearly pure profit.

(B) Most of the individuals pirating them aren't using them to generate revenue of any sort. Companies that use pirated products to make money should be relentlessly prosecuted, that I agree, but home users/students?

? Despite the claimed lowering of piracy rates with WGA, we have not seen any drop in prices for any products. Essentially, this seems to me then that one argument against piracy (that they are shifting the burdens of cost to paying customers) falls flat on its face since even though piracy has been reduced, the costs are still the same.

QFT

[Scirwode]

Despite my defending piracy, I pretty much use only legit software as well - my XP/Office licenses are valid, I bought WinRAR, owe all my games, and pay for a subscription to Object Desktop. I applaud you Scirwode, but let's face it, in this region, you and I are pretty much exceptions to the norm. Here, piracy is the ingrained way of life and going exclusively legit makes you stand out. But unlike you, I can pretty much empathize with my colleagues and classmates who pirate, especially when legitimate versions of Windows and Office represent a sizable chunk of a white collar worker's salary. As for the morals, as I've mentioned, nothing is in black or white. There is an element of slim (for most people anyway) moral injustice when pirating, but to go so far as to claim it makes you a thief with no morals is to swing to the extremes.

I understand what you mean, in a way there is not much of a good reason for me to go for original considering the prices and such. A few of my friends use pirated software simply because they focus on their life and such. Using student loans and such is the only way for them to move on so I can relate to that. What I mean is that there are people out there who can afford gaming consoles, change their wardrobes every week and such, yet they use pirated software. I shake my head at these people, considering that every day I see people who have just enough to survive to the next day.

I have a cousin who has just bought a new computer. His previous one has survived for seven years so to have a new computer was something exciting for him. It was just an AMD Sempron processor with 512MB of RAM but he was proud of it. But he couldn't afford an original version of Windows but told me that when he has the money, he will get one. I advised him to wait until Windows Vista and he agreed. I sympathise with my friends too and there are many who could not afford it. I do my best to make sure that at least the go legitimate in some ways by using Avast and such.

I wish that there was another way to eradicate this, Daybreak, because I'm tired of seeing people who have all the luxury in the world at their fingertips but yet do this. In a way because of this, Microsoft charges a high price for this. It's sad that it has come to this.

Scirwode

[cbosdell]

while I will buy Windows Vista sometime next year when I have enough saved up to build a new computer to replace my 5 year old pc (or it will be next may), I feel that windows vista is very overpriced.

Home Full should be $50, Home Premium $100, Buisness Full $100 and Ultimate Full $150. The $400 for Ultimate or $240 for Premium full (not sure which version I'll buy) will take months to save up for probably. All I can home is that the OEM version for Home full is about the same as XP Pro's OEM over at Newegg and Ultimate is under or at $200.

One reason I'm not against people using cracked software is the fact that Windows alienates its customers in an attempt to stop hackers. One example of this is XP requiring activation. This so called security feature has become a serious PITA for me. I format my computer every month or every couple of months depending to keep my computer running good and to fix problems that require a format.

I bought my XP Home Full copy in 2004. For the last few times I've tried to activate windows after formatting and reinstalling I've been told activation failed and I have been forced to call Microsoft Customer Support tell the computer my code, have it tell me it failed and then have it put me on hold for several minutes waiting to talk to someone in India. Then it takes several minutes to read my code to them and say that I am using a legal copy of xp and only on one pc and let them read a code back to me. This costs me about $1 in cell phone minutes and is a problem I should NEVER have as a paying customer!

Also, Windows Genuine Advantage is another annoying program I have to install to prove I paid for windows when the people who haven't paid for it can just get the updates via other methods. I even had to validate my copy of windows was valid to install WMP11 and IE7. It is just idiotic. I have to pay insane amounts that take months to save up for just to be treated like a potential criminal?

2) For Office At some point, people are in school, even those people with higher eduction that you spoke of. Thats all you need to get Office Student Edition free of charge.

The same thing goes for Office 2007. I am a high school student and all and have looked around and can't find any student edition that is free of charge as liquidcore claimed. OpenOffice is nice but when I need to do powerpoint presentations or things I need publisher for its pretty much useless.

So, liquidcore, can you please tell me who i need to get in touch with to get a free copy of Office 2007 Student Edition? I can scan verify I'm a current student as of this semester. Thanks :)

I just noticed Office 2003 Student edition has Outlook but 2007 has OneNote. Wonder why the change?

3) If you don't make that much money, the chances your computer could reasonably operate Windows Vista Ultimate Edition? Slim to none, which makes that entire section of your post irrelevant.

My computer is 4.5 years old and can run Vista just fine. The only thing I can't do is aero.

Edited November 13, 2006 by cbosdell

[Elagizy]

After all these years and you still didn't get it!!!!!!!!

"Microsoft takes from the rich and give to the poor and scientific stuff" that's Bill's policy

Microsoft knows that it's being stolen by people (specially home users), but also they know any firm or institution are going to buy their legal copies to run their business legally.

Also some people like to buy the "original" dvd or cd and Microsoft lovely packages and online support ....bla bla bla ok that's it!

What about the majority of users? well, they are NOT rich and they are not going to live in the 20th century and say i'm using NOW windows 95 which is free now :p !!!!

And so:

Microsoft steal rich people and you steal microsoft, and after all Microsoft stole more than you :p

And then Microsoft donates what it stolen to give it for non-profit organizations .... etc.

The point is stealing Microsoft is normal, THEY WANT TO, However they put OGA,WGA stuff to nag your life. And finally they make high profits than you imagine because of their high prices.

[technord]

What makes me laugh is the people who say they can't afford to buy Windows yet run an SLi'd conroe rig with HD monitor :no:

[Dick Montage]

I think Microsoft are on the right path with their battle against piracy...

I think in a way they have acknowledged that some people will run a cracked version of Windows/Office whatever. The pirates will always find a way around. In a way they are sort of allowing this - as there is little they can do to stop it without making life for legitimate users even more painful.

However, that doesn't mean that they will make life easy for the pirates. There are already a few different ways that they are forcing WGA. And I think a lot of it boils down to time+effort vs buying a legit license. Sure, on one of my machines, I am still running a VLK of XP and same for Office 2k3. However, I have gone legit on my main PC. Why?

It became too much of a pain in the ass to constantly have to find the cracked installers for IE7, WMP11, Defender, etc. I eventually thought "Bugger this" and decided that the time and effort I was spending in just running my PC with all updates had become more than I was prepared to spend, and I'd rather spend the money.

Just my opinion.

[Scirwode]

What makes me laugh is the people who say they can't afford to buy Windows yet run an SLi'd conroe rig with HD monitor :no:

Exactly what I mean.

Scirwode

[liquidcore]

By this point i think there is no point beating a dead horse.

piracy is illegal. you want to get paid, so does everybody else. You steal a chocolate bar, you steal an operating system, you steal a car. You're a theif, just be lucky they dont cut off your fingers like in the olden days. At least that would stop you from typing away defending your love of getting something for nothing because you just wont pay for it anyway.

Mods, Its probably time to close this thread, cause its all more senseless rhetoric.

PS, calls from land lines to toll free numbers are exactly that: TOLLFREE ;) and if you dig, i'm sure you will find the Free student edition if you go back a couple of versions.. Its not 2007, but then you wouldn't pay for that either. As for your 5 year old computer... yeah, it looks it with those stats... Tries to remember the 500gb hard drive that was available 5 years ago, that was affordable for a family who only pulls in $600 a month that was discussed way earlier in the thread. Keep shovelling man

Edited November 13, 2006 by liquidcore

[cbosdell]

By this point i think there is no point beating a dead horse.

piracy is illegal. you want to get paid, so does everybody else. You steal a chocolate bar, you steal an operating system, you steal a car. You're a theif, just be lucky they dont cut off your fingers like in the olden days. At least that would stop you from typing away defending your love of getting something for nothing because you just wont pay for it anyway.

Mods, Its probably time to close this thread, cause its all more senseless rhetoric.

PS, calls from land lines to toll free numbers are exactly that: TOLLFREE ;)

The landline phone in the room with the computer died or something and the other one is too far away. I don't have a wireless phone or anything and you must be at your computer to activate so my only choice is my prepaid Alltel cellphone which costs $.10 a minute. So yes, microsoft costs me about $1 every time I have to activate my computer.

The point is that I shouldn't, as a paying customer, be treated like I'm probably a pirate and forced to go through all these loops and steps just to use the software I PAID $212 for.

Btw -- I edited my above post with a question to you asking how I as a high school student can get my free copy of Office as you indicated earlier in this thread?

Edited November 13, 2006 by cbosdell

[liquidcore]

previous post edited :blink:

unplug the other phone and move it into the room :p send me the $1 instead

[cbosdell]

PS, calls from land lines to toll free numbers are exactly that: TOLLFREE ;) and if you dig, i'm sure you will find the Free student edition if you go back a couple of versions.. Its not 2007, but then you wouldn't pay for that either. As for your 5 year old computer... yeah, it looks it with those stats... Tries to remember the 500gb hard drive that was available 5 years ago, that was affordable for a family who only pulls in $600 a month that was discussed way earlier in the thread. Keep shovelling man

I looked for the free student edition of 2003 and theres no mention of it on the microsoft web site. But I was referring to getting the free 2007 student edition after its released.

I have done some minor upgrades to my computer in the last few years but each upgrade has taken a long time to save up for. And as for my 500 GB hard drive i purchased last week, it took me from August 2006-October 2006 to save up the $203 for that and an SATA Raid card off of newegg.com. Also, I never said my family only made $600 a month. :blink:

I can recall each time I've upgraded this computer. In June 2003 I added 256 MB ram bringing it up to 512 and added my 64 mb graphics card replacing the onboard 32 mb video and an 80 gb hard drive to suppliment my 40 (the 80 has since failed). That cost me around $200. Then in December 2003 I bought my CDRW for $60 from Wal Mart. In April of 2004 I bought Windows XP Home Full for $212 from Staples to replace the 98SE this machine came with. In December 2005 I got a DVD Burner for $40 from Wal Mart. In July 2006, I got a 160 GB Hard Drive for this computer when the 80 GB failed. That cost $60. Then last week I got a 500 GB Hard drive which will migrate to the new computer I am saving up for at a cost of $203.

I've only responded to this thread three times as of this reply. Could I have bought that 500 GB hard drive in one month? Yes, but it would have meant having something like the power bill or internet or mortgage being unpaid. My whole point in this thread is mainly that Microsofts Activation for all their products and WGA and other antipiracy devices only hurt their paying customers. Those who pirate Microsoft Products or any software WILL get around it and get all the updates they need.

I suppose your moving the working phone into the room with the computer idea would work. I'll do that next time. :)

Edited November 13, 2006 by cbosdell