The state of Neowin

[markwolfe Veteran]

An hour ago, I had a reply here. One that didn't have any personal attacks, warez, or anything else that posts typically get deleted around here. So disagreeing with a super is grounds for deleting a post now?

Was the content of your post a "disagreement with a super"? You don't really state, but it is implied by your question.

If so, then, yes, rule 12 clearly states

Threads and posts questioning the actions or decisions of forum moderations will be deleted on sight, and the appropriate action taken (up to and including forum bans) against the thread starter and/or participants. However, as a member you reserve the right to PM any moderator or administrator regarding action taken at Neowin.

I've been on staff here long enough to know that there are no personal vendettas against people. There are people who habitually make rule-violating posts, and these people generally think that there is a staff conspiracy against them. But there are so many staff members with diverse viewpoints and backgrounds that it would be impossible for some staff to pick on people without others noting. All staff actions are automatically logged. If you feel a super is picking on you, take it up with the super. Or another super. If you get nowhere with that, and are genuinely being abused by staff, talk to an admin.

Neowin is privately held. There is no "free for all" with what people post here. The rules make Neowin a better place than many other destinations found on the internet.

[itsnotabigtruck]

Was the content of your post a "disagreement with a super"? You don't really state, but it is implied by your question.

If so, then, yes, rule 12 clearly states

I've been on staff here long enough to know that there are no personal vendettas against people. There are people who habitually make rule-violating posts, and these people generally think that there is a staff conspiracy against them. But there are so many staff members with diverse viewpoints and backgrounds that it would be impossible for some staff to pick on people without others noting. All staff actions are automatically logged. If you feel a super is picking on you, take it up with the super. Or another super. If you get nowhere with that, and are genuinely being abused by staff, talk to an admin.

Neowin is privately held. There is no "free for all" with what people post here. The rules make Neowin a better place than many other destinations found on the internet.

Interesting post. I'm not saying anyone has a personal vendetta. It's happening to everyone. I'm just saying that there's way too much deleting and warning going on around here and way too little insightful discussion.

You see lots of thread and post deletions everywhere. Nearly every even slightly controversial thread gets either locked or deleted. "Thread Cleaned" is a common sight, and everyone knows that that means massive numbers of posts were deleted. Thread deletions take quality posts as collateral damage.

When I originally joined it wasn't (at least as much) like that. If you pulled statistics for thread lockings/post deletions/warns/etc. between a few years ago and now, I would bet that it's gone up. A lot.

[QuarterSwede]

I agree with the OP to a certain extent. Neowin was a lot different when I joined and I thought the posts were generally a lot better. People just had more to say that was pertinent to discussion and rarely went off topic and when they did it was usually a lot of fun instead of being some sick posts or what not like today.

But I do agree with the mods. I'm glad they are cleaning up posts, even though sometimes things get a bit more cleaned than they needed to be. Although, better cleaner than leaving some of the dirt behind.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Interesting post. I'm not saying anyone has a personal vendetta. It's happening to everyone. I'm just saying that there's way too much deleting and warning going on around here and way too little insightful discussion.

You see lots of thread and post deletions everywhere. Nearly every even slightly controversial thread gets either locked or deleted. "Thread Cleaned" is a common sight, and everyone knows that that means massive numbers of posts were deleted. Thread deletions take quality posts as collateral damage.

When I originally joined it wasn't (at least as much) like that. If you pulled statistics for thread lockings/post deletions/warns/etc. between a few years ago and now, I would bet that it's gone up. A lot.

I have been on staff for a very long time and I can state with fact that...

1. You are not privy to know each and every reason why an action is taken. There are good reasons that you are not aware of.

2. If something is done that is not agreed on, we discuss it and adjust things accordingly.

3. We are bound by the same rules as you are and then some.

4. If a staff member is not fully understanding something on what if at all should be done regarding a specific post or member, it is asked before hand.

5. Again, you are not privy to know each and every reason why an action is take.

6. If you find something you do not agree with, PM a supervisor. The system is set up and made clear what to do. Problem is, the ones who do the most complaining do not follow guidelines or a habitual rule breakers.

7. Supervisors make it a priority to review, as much as possible, that actions taken were waranted.

8. Staff that do not follow guidelines do not stay on staff. Simple as that.

We are here to have fun and enjoy ourself just as much as you are because of our passion and dedication to this site. We deal with more BS then you will ever know and I mean ever know or understand. We do not like having to warn, ban, deal with the drama or fallout from someone that can't get a clue or can care less what we want this community to strive for. We deal with it on our end to make this the best place it can be as well as protect you, the member, from the non sense. Do your part in this community and follow the rules and guidelines.

This is all I have to add to the conversation and thank everyone for sharing there thoughts. We just ask that you put yourself in our shoes and understand what I have posted above.

Edited October 19, 2007 by AgEnTsMiTh

[markwolfe Veteran]

Interesting post. I'm not saying anyone has a personal vendetta. It's happening to everyone. I'm just saying that there's way too much deleting and warning going on around here and way too little insightful discussion.

You see lots of thread and post deletions everywhere. Nearly every even slightly controversial thread gets either locked or deleted. "Thread Cleaned" is a common sight, and everyone knows that that means massive numbers of posts were deleted. Thread deletions take quality posts as collateral damage.

When I originally joined it wasn't (at least as much) like that. If you pulled statistics for thread lockings/post deletions/warns/etc. between a few years ago and now, I would bet that it's gone up. A lot.

Like QuarterSwede mentioned in the post below yours, there is a perception (perhaps real) that post quality was better several years ago. And you mention that you think post removals are on the rise.

These two are not unrelated, I think. ;) More of the "less technical" threads draw less mature posters who post things like "I'd hit dat" and such. Or trolls that enjoy starting fights, rather than disagreeing and discussing things on a factual basis. The staff is (and has always been) actively removing as much junk as they find and/or gets reported to them. If we are seeing more junk, and the staff is removing more junk, it seems to me that this is what one would expect in this situation.

2. If something is done that is not agreed on, we discuss it and adjust things accordingly.

3. We are bound by the same rules as you are and then some.

4. We have very clear cut and dry rules. If a staff member is not clear one what if at all should be done, it is asked before hand.

This is pure gospel truth here. Checks and balances exist to help the varied staff members act more consistently with each other.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Indeed and I know that you can also confirm that we strive very very hard to be consistent across the board and we work on that every day hence why we have guidelines as well.

Look, no staff member here is saying we are perfect or never make a mistake. But, this is why we have things set up to make sure we do what is right for you the member and for the entire community.

[shockz]

Interesting post. I'm not saying anyone has a personal vendetta. It's happening to everyone. I'm just saying that there's way too much deleting and warning going on around here and way too little insightful discussion.

You see lots of thread and post deletions everywhere. Nearly every even slightly controversial thread gets either locked or deleted. "Thread Cleaned" is a common sight, and everyone knows that that means massive numbers of posts were deleted. Thread deletions take quality posts as collateral damage.

When I originally joined it wasn't (at least as much) like that. If you pulled statistics for thread lockings/post deletions/warns/etc. between a few years ago and now, I would bet that it's gone up. A lot.

Correct me if I'm wrong... but I see... a... oh wait... nothing on your warn bar. It's a 0%. Your just spouting junk. We aren't on a warn spree...

Just a few stats for yesterday:

There were 7 warns yesterday.... 5 of those warn adjustments were due to spam...

i.e... one post wonder signing up to spam his site. So that leaves 2 valid warns.

The other two warns were for flaming. 2 warns... on a day were we get thousands of posts. Not bad at all.

Hardly warn crazy.

Edited October 19, 2007 by shockz

[sundayx Veteran]

You guys have such stats?

[Slimy]

You guys have such stats?

Of course not. He made them up and whipped out MS Paint to prove his point :rofl:

[itsnotabigtruck]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but I see... a... oh wait... nothing on your warn bar. It's a 0%. Your just spouting junk. We aren't on a warn spree...

Just a few stats for yesterday:

There were 7 warns yesterday.... 5 of those warn adjustments were due to spam...

i.e... one post wonder signing up to spam his site. So that leaves 2 valid warns.

The other two warns were for flaming. 2 warns... on a day were we get thousands of posts. Not bad at all.

Hardly warn crazy.

I've had 2 warns in the past and haven't posted nearly as much since then. Fewer posts = fewer opportunities for warns. One of the warns was something I felt was kind of an overpunishment but for something I won't do again, the other one I feel was more injust but there wasn't much I could do about it. However, several threads I've posted in have mysteriously disappeared recently, and I've seen lots of locked threads and thread cleanings.

But I'm not intending to flame and it's no big deal. It just seems like Neowin's felt more uptight and less open for maybe the past year or so.

[Keyboard Cowboy]

The point is, when Neowin started, it was a place for people to learn and help each other and, as of late, it seems the entire community has shifted away from that ideology to a more "let's bull**** about everything and crap on threads because we have nothing else to contribute" state. This initiative isn't in place to stifle postings, but, rather, to encourage thought out, mature posts that contribute to the community and bring back the feel this place used to have to it.

Not counting the gaming forums, which tend to be a hot bed, a majority of warnings stem from the non-tech forums Neowin has in place. On top of that, the ability to receive help in the tech forums has fallen drastically. We want to entice knowledgeable visitors to join the community and, to do that, we need to clean up the areas that would otherwise turn away those very same people.

Posts such as "I'd hit it", or "nothing phrases", are worthless. They contribute nothing, quickly steer a topic off course and lower the overall post quality on Neowin. If anyone is going to complain about our desire to filter out that nonsense, I have to question their motives and overall desire to see Neowin, as a tech community, flourish.

Sorry guys but I have to agree with bangbang023 and the rest of the mods on this one.

[Raa]

I too am all for removing crap posts.

The move to not have off-topic posts in the latest forums button is GREAT.

And I mean seriously. Almost always I was seeing "[game] Say something about...." - That's NOT INTERESTING after the first 50 times of seeing it. GOOD Move (Y)

Also, im totally in agreement with removing post counts - make them work like warns (only you see them).

Review/remove the ratings, thats just overabused, and I must admit i've abused it in the last 10 minutes :p

Drop the milestones forum, or make it for NON forum related discussion like new baby, 18th party, NOT "OMG IVE GOT 1337 POSTS!".

I'd have to say in recent years post quality HAS dropped a lot with the "I'd hit it" and "Vista Sucks" (ahem...) comments. They're just not needed. Keep it on topic, if you want to say something sucks - justify it, give us a reason, contribute to the discussion, and dont be a bloody troll doing it, respect others opinions!

Oh and keep the off topic threads, just keep them organised. Snyper needs his fix, I wont deny him that. Some of his jokes are terrible (:p), but dont let that stop him ;)

Anyway, I'd have to say a big "Well done" to the admins, mods and others for making this sort of move. Here's to hoping the quality of posts improving! (Y)

Raa.

[Panacik]

I started sifting through this thread but realised it was full of the same things over and over again... Those who are for and those who are against.

Personally i am all for Neowin clamping down on posts. I like to have fun on Neowin but lately i have gone in to topics, cringed and come out again before anyone at work sees.

Its all fine to have a laugh and post funny jokes, but some where just wrong.

Also some of the ways people have started speaking on the forums is a little, kind of silly and childish. If i wanted to see people speak like that, i would talk to my 15 year olds nephews contacts on MSN.

I realise we do have younger people on here and that they will post some silly items, but then that spoils it for the rest of the member base, especially if their work or school takes action and blocks Neowin.

As has been pointed out already, it also works the other way, that parents may not want their kids to see some of the material on Neowin because it had become so imature and silly etc.

We have other areas where subscribers can post in a more relaxed way. It stands to reason that if someone is able to afford and pay themselves a small fee to be able to post in those forums, then they are likely old enough to take responsibility of viewing those forums at decent times and are old enough to view them.

Neowin overall is still probably the best free community out there that has a great modderation team, great information and great posters. Its just a shame that because the mods became a little more relaxed, people have started going over the top and almost abusing that freedom.

And I applaud.

Hopefully Neowin will become a place for thoughtful, meaningful discussion. Threads such as "Post Pictures of your room!" don't help me or anyone else.

Lately I've felt like I'm surrounded by bored teenagers on this board.

I also applaude, but also dont agree with your comment on post pictures of your room. It might not be connected to what Neowin stands for, but it is still SFW. Which means it should really be alloud.

The posts you are referring to as being posted by teenagers i find tend to be the threads like, "finishing off on a woman" and "i broke up with a girl and want to kill myself". These types of threads and pointless and sometimes degrading to others.

There are alot of bored teenagers on this board and as long as they post those pictures in the proper forum what is it hurting?

See above, it is hurting the forum because there is no "correct place" other than the forum(s) that only subs can see. In which case a sub should have the common sense not to view those forums whilst at work/school. Whereas if it is posted in the general public domain, there is no "correct" forum for it and could result in people seeing things they did not neccassarily come here to see.

What - 4 weeks ago? You sound like you reeeeally have this place sussed out.

Hahaha! :rofl: (Y) that comment made my day! :rofl:

[Fred Derf Veteran]

I've had 2 warns in the past and haven't posted nearly as much since then. Fewer posts = fewer opportunities for warns. One of the warns was something I felt was kind of an overpunishment but for something I won't do again, the other one I feel was more injust but there wasn't much I could do about it.

You are still reaching back several years and applying it to today. After taking a really brief look into your past, I assume that you did not appeal the warning to a higher Neowin staffer as one may very well have been reversed. We do have cheques and balances.

On the issue of thread cleanings (and the baby being chucked out with the bathwater) , I will say that some other wise acceptable posts may get deleted. Threads are usually cleaned when there is flaming or severely off-topic material that doesn't warrant a new thread. Topics that refer to or quote a post being deleted will no longer make sense after the thread is cleaned.

If a post makes only a quick reference to a flame war and then going on to say something useful then it really should get edited rather than deleted but understand that this does take more time for moderators and we sometimes are forced to moderate on the run. That is to say that we don't always have the time available to do a job as well as it should be done. Sometimes we do something quick and dirty hoping to return later and fix it up properly. Unlike paid staff, we have to moderate when we can.

[Guest jgrodri]

Sorry Fred, it stopped working like that long ago.

the quality of this site has gone down amazingly. Two years ago, when i finally registered i was seroiusly considering subscribing.. neowin was that useful. Now there is no way i'd do it. I still visit the site from time to time but i've noticed i post less every passing day, ther simply aren't any interesting topics to discuss.

Neowin has become a place where 14 year olds talk about how "leet" their favorite console is or why fight game 1 is so many years ahead of fight game 2.

the problem with that is that those same 14 year olds now go into all other topics and make stupid comments.

What is even worse, many mods (you know who you are) don't bother to actually moderate.. its so much easier to delete posts or lock topics! and when i ask for an explanation or a review, my message is just ignored!

Out of the mac section and the science section (for which we had to beg), i hardly visit other parts anymore.

[+M2Ys4U Subscriber¹]

Despite me saying earlier in the thread that I didn't like asinine threads we still get here, I do have to say I have respect for the current moderation style. It's one I've tried (and on the whole failed) to emulate on my own, smaller forums I (have) administer(ed).

[Panacik]

What is even worse, many mods (you know who you are) don't bother to actually moderate.. its so much easier to delete posts or lock topics! and when i ask for an explanation or a review, my message is just ignored!

Although this is not really related to this thread, i must say that i agree with this comment.

There are some modderators who modderate well and clean, delete and close threads, but do so without leaving any comment as to why.

I mean a post a n00b makes may contain material which is not alloud on Neowin... Thread closed without any reason. The person the leaves Neowin because:

A) They see it as ignorant and/or arrogant modderating

B) They have no idea what they did wrong

C) Even if they do stay, they will make the same mistake in future, because the mod has not actually made any effort at all to teach the person what they have done wrong in the first place.

I have seen this happen a lot recently in some of the modderated posts and it is nearly ALWAYS the same mod who does it...

[swuzzlebum]

^ I don't think it's that hard to take a few minutes to read the posting guidelines... I'm pretty noobish myself and that's never happened to me. Besides that, I can think of a number of times where I was happy to see a thread purged of useless posts. It's pretty annoying having to waste time reading through crappy posts to get to good ones.

[snyper]

^ I don't think it's that hard to take a few minutes to read the posting guidelines... I'm pretty noobish myself and that's never happened to me. Besides that, I can think of a number of times where I was happy to see a thread purged of useless posts. It's pretty annoying having to waste time reading through crappy posts to get to good ones.

If you, use the ignore user feature doesnt that not show that members posts in a thread and on te forum?

[swuzzlebum]

^ I would, but I can't really think of anyone that consistently annoys me that much. :laugh:

I am curious, though; if you have someone ignored, do you still see new threads they make?

Edited October 19, 2007 by swuzzlebum

[Fred Derf Veteran]

What is even worse, many mods (you know who you are) don't bother to actually moderate.. its so much easier to delete posts or lock topics! and when i ask for an explanation or a review, my message is just ignored!

There are some modderators who modderate well and clean, delete and close threads, but do so without leaving any comment as to why.

If you notice moderating that is too abrupt or moderators who do not return PMs then feel free to contact their superiors.

For fmods and gmods contact a Supervisor. For Supervisors contact an Daniel. For News Staff/Newsposters contact Shane Pitman. For IRC contact AgEnTsMiTh.

[snyper]

If you notice moderating that is too abrupt or moderators who do not return PMs then feel free to contact their superiors.

For fmods and gmods contact a Supervisor. For Supervisors contact an Daniel. For News Staff/Newsposters contact Shane Pitman. For IRC contact AgEnTsMiTh.

I dont think there is a problem with mods editing or deleting a post and not letting the member in certain cases.

Only yesterday, a mod deleted a word from my post, i didnt know what word it was so i PM'd him as i was curious. He politely gave me the reason, he did it as a precautionary measure and i agreed with him and i dont feel he needed to wast time contacting me over somthing as trivial as this

bmaher ftw (Y)

As for the thread rating system, this thread is a good example of the abuse of the system. This is a really good topic and is being discussed very well and is important for the forum that it is being discussed, yet some feel otherwise for some reason or other.

[Panacik]

^ I don't think it's that hard to take a few minutes to read the posting guidelines... I'm pretty noobish myself and that's never happened to me. Besides that, I can think of a number of times where I was happy to see a thread purged of useless posts. It's pretty annoying having to waste time reading through crappy posts to get to good ones.

Not being funny, but your still rather new here. There is still time to slip up on something you where unaware of, but still a lot of it is common sense.

If you notice moderating that is too abrupt or moderators who do not return PMs then feel free to contact their superiors.

For fmods and gmods contact a Supervisor. For Supervisors contact an Daniel. For News Staff/Newsposters contact Shane Pitman. For IRC contact AgEnTsMiTh.

Its not that its abrupt, its the opposit. A delted thread is fine, maybe send an email to the person who created the thread to say, "thread deleted and this is why".

Thread closed, then leave a comment saying, "thread closed and this is why".

A majority if not most mods do this, but there are a couple that just dont seem to. They either close a thread and leave no sign of who closed it or why (even threads that appear to have no reason for closure). I realise some threads may be closed due to the thread starters request, but at least let people know thats why, just out of curtousy(SP?).

I never bother to mention anything to be honest because this hasent happened to any of my threads, however i have seen a few other peoples threads closed without reason or without showing which mod closed it etc.

Other than that, the mod and admin team do a great job and i think need to become a little harder to ensure Neowin gets back on track.

In fact, i would recommend closing threads like this... It shouldnt really be up for discussion as to mods being over controlling. Undercontrolling, fine let the mods know, but in most cases, the people who say they are over controlling are just miffed because they got a warn or something.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Fact of the matter is that some threads are removed all together from public view and we do not have time nor the desire to contact each and every person who has posted with an explanation.

It is our guideline to contact the thread creator as to the reason something was removed or closed. sometimes, there are reasons why we do not go and explain our actions because of the reasoning behind it. I am not saying this is 100% the case each and every time. We should make it a standard to explain to a point why a thread was closed when in public view if the reasons permit it. I know and have seen threads closed that should have some sort of comment and it was not. If you find this was not done or want a reason, our door is open. That is why we have stated time and time and time again, contact the moderator, or a supervisor when you do not agree with something or if you are seeking some information. If it is something we can explain, we will. Just understand that there will be cases that we cant discuss what actions were taken or why we took certain actions.

rule of thumb, if in doubt, contact us please. You have no idea how available we are to the members. We are happy to assist and discuss as much as we can or, are able to, with all of you.

[....]

When I originally joined it wasn't (at least as much) like that. If you pulled statistics for thread lockings/post deletions/warns/etc. between a few years ago and now, I would bet that it's gone up. A lot.

I 100% agree here.