University Tells Student to Alter Religious Views

[Darth Laidher]

You're right; I forgot that prejudice actually stems from either of the two: unintelligence or ignorance. Thank you for reminding me :) Your rocket scientist friend clearly isn't unintelligent, but he is ignorant if he likes to discriminate against adult humans who harm nobody.

I didn't say we should revoke everybody's degree just because they have offended somebody, but when a person is a potential risk to clients because of their hateful views, there is a problem.

You can't post a homophobic joke in the joke section because it's not my forum; I have no problem with it, but the moderation staff as a whole do and I agree with them - it could offend some people.

If people are offended by any joke then they are simply weak-minded, but that is my opinion and not Neowin's.

But this person clearly offended her professor otherwise she wouldn't be getting kicked out of school.So we shouldn't take everyones degree away, just certain peoples based on what you deem right and wrong...nice.

[Calum Veteran]

I am aware of the events you're talking about, and 3 years ago I may have even agreed with you, but I now strongly believes that everyone should have the right to voice their opinion, however shochking or absurd it could seem to other people. What happened in Uganda maybe outrageous but it was the result of 2 principles that are considered the pilars of todays society : free speech and democracy. Scott Lively gave a talk and the Ugandan parliamant passed a bill. The easy answer to this is to condemn free speech and say that it was Lively who caused this, the more elaborate answer would be to say that the Ugandan people chose to pass that bill, the majority felt that it was the right decision, that's their country, and however shocking it may sound, that's their problem. The only thing you can do is the same thing Lively has done : go there and expose YOUR view, I'm sure if they're convinced they'll pass another bill.

This world is a melting pot of diverse ideologies, some could seem impossible to understand, but that's not a motive to want everyone to think like you.

You do make some very good points there; thank you for the insight (Y) :) It is nice to see an intelligent and polite response to my views. I find it hard to disagree with anything you've said there because it does make sense to me. I have to ask though... would you believe the exact same if the government of your country decided to execute all people who practice heterosexuality, including yourself? :)

Lol yes of course they dont hate Christians and Jews and other religious people lol.

They clearly don't. Atheist views disagree with religious views - it's as simple as that. Christians, Catholics, Mormons and Jews all promote discrimination against homosexuality.

So, anyone who has developed such an opinion is -by your definition- unintelligent.

Opinions aren't always based on facts, especially as far as this issue is concerned. Very intelligent people come from very diverse sociocultural backgrounds. Your intelligence* couldn't help you with grasping that very simple fact. Labeling others as unintelligent, just because their opinions are different from yours, is just plain stupidity.

I've already retracted that statement. I should have used the term 'ignorant' rather than 'unintelligent'. People who discriminate against those who harm nobody in society are ignorant; surely you can't disagree with that?

[HSoft]

You're right; I forgot that prejudice actually stems from either of the two: unintelligence or ignorance. Thank you for reminding me :) Your rocket scientist friend clearly isn't unintelligent, but he is ignorant if he likes to discriminate against adult humans who harm nobody.

He doesn't descriminate against adult humans who harm nobody. Nice conclusions you are jumping to.

You're obviously just trying to push your biased agenda/viewpoints here.

[Calum Veteran]

I'm pretty sure you can find atheists which have some very hateful attitudes (if not against homosexuality, then against other life styles). Enough with absolutes.

I'm not talking about the people - I'm talking about the beliefs. There are hateful people in all walks of life, but atheist beliefs do not promote discrimination against those who harm nobody in society - they simply disagree with religious views. Some religions actually promote discrimination within their core views.

But this person clearly offended her professor otherwise she wouldn't be getting kicked out of school.So we shouldn't take everyones degree away, just certain peoples based on what you deem right and wrong...nice.

No, it's not likely she did offend the professor - it's more likely they were concerned for the comfort of her future clients. I haven't even stated that we should take anybody's degree away; please read my posts and tell me where I even agreed with the decision of this university.

[Darth Laidher]

You do make some very good points there; thank you for the insight (Y) :) It is nice to see an intelligent and polite response to my views. I find it hard to disagree with anything you've said there because it does make sense to me. I have to ask though... would you believe the exact same if the government of your country decided to execute all people who practice heterosexuality, including yourself? :)

They clearly don't. Atheist views disagree with religious views - it's as simple as that. Christians, Catholics, Mormons and Jews all promote discrimination against homosexuality.

I've already retracted that statement. I should have used the term 'ignorant' rather than unintelligent. People who discriminate against those who harm nobody in society are ignorant; surely you can't disagree with that?

Yeah thats why a lot of them are outspoken against religion.I had a conversation with an atheist in the debathizing thread. He made it clear that he hated Christians.I don't know how you can say with a straight face that atheists aren't hateful lol.

If someone would come to the forum and talk about how they loved jesus and all that gibberish the atheists would come out of the wood work to post hateful comments and you know that calum.

[Calum Veteran]

He doesn't descriminate against adult humans who harm nobody. Nice conclusions you are jumping to.

You're obviously just trying to push your biased agenda/viewpoints here.

You said he believes homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality - that is discrimination against people who do not harm anybody or society. It's not about an agenda or views - it's about fact. Fact states that homosexuality does not harm society or anybody.

Yeah thats why a lot of them are outspoken against religion.I had a conversation with an atheist in the debathizing thread. He made it clear that he hated Christians.I don't know how you can say with a straight face that atheists aren't hateful lol.

If someone would come to the forum and talk about how they loved jesus and all that gibberish the atheists would come out of the wood work to post hateful comments and you know that calum.

That's the person, not the views of atheism; please read my posts above :)

[DrunkenBeard]

would you believe the exact same if the government of your country decided to execute all people who practice heterosexuality, including yourself? :)

That's a difficult question I really can't answer without sounding like a hypocrite. I don't know, put in extreme scenarios people tend to develop their basic survival instinct so I guess I'll either go to another country or fight for my life.

[Dashel]

The religious are more whiney about their handicap than the retarded. God please send us more Down Syndrome kids and less born agains as they have much more worth.

[Darth Laidher]

I'm not talking about the people - I'm talking about the beliefs. There are hateful people in all walks of life, but atheist beliefs do not promote discrimination against those who harm nobody in society - they simply disagree with religious views. Some religions actually promote discrimination within their core views.

No, it's not likely she did offend the professor - it's more likely they were concerned for the comfort of her future clients. I haven't even stated that we should take anybody's degree away; please read my posts and tell me where I even agreed with the decision of this university.

Somebody better go yank the liberal professors out of the classrooms then, they try to imprint their views on their students all the time.

[HSoft]

You said he believes homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality - that is discrimination against people who do not harm anybody or society.

Why is that discrimination? In what way did he discriminate? Just because you hold a belief does not mean that you discriminate. Discrimination is an act. A belief is not.

Wow, you're calling people un-intelligent just because they don't subscribe to your viewpoint or homosexual agenda and yet you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Yeah, that's real intelligent!

[Aaron Veteran]

Why is that discrimination? In what way did he discriminate? Just because you hold a belief does not mean that you discriminate. Discrimination is an act. A belief is not.

Wow, you're calling people un-intelligent just because they don't subscribe to your viewpoint or homosexual agenda and yet you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Yeah, that's real intelligent!

Agreed. What is happening in Uganda is not because people can express their views, it is because the government is enacting laws that restrict even more rights. One may lead to the other, but it also may not.

[Calum Veteran]

Why is that discrimination? In what way did he discriminate? Just because you hold a belief does not mean that you discriminate. Discrimination is an act. A belief is not.

Wow, you're calling people un-intelligent just because they don't subscribe to your viewpoint or homosexual agenda and yet you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Yeah, that's real intelligent!

Please don't say I am wrong without doing your research; I am clearly right in this case: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination

As shown in definitions 2 and 3, the term 'discrimination' includes beliefs and choices as well as acts.

It's not about subscribing to my 'belief'. You could say I'm discriminating against your belief - that would be correct. The difference is, those who believe homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality hold a belief which can cause harm to innocent people, indirectly. If everybody thought homosexuality wasn't equal, the consequence would be laws created to oppress homosexuals.

By the way, there is no agenda. What makes you people think homosexuals have some sort of agenda? All they want is to be seen as equal because they are equal. Would you not feel the same if the majority of people were homosexual and they believed heterosexuality was not equal and not natural?

[sudo]

I've already retracted that statement. I should have used the term 'ignorant' rather than unintelligent. People who discriminate against those who harm nobody in society are ignorant; surely you can't disagree with that?

It comes down to that bold part. Some people, intelligent and non ignorant, who have developed an opinion just like you developed yours, based on their own analysis, an opinion affected by their own sociocultural values, view homosexuality differently. It doesn't make them ignorant, because your very own opinion is also a very subjective one as far as this issue is concerned. Their attitude (no matter how discriminative you label it) is their own effort to reject values they deem dangerous.

Please do not jump into any conclusions about my opinion when it comes to homosexuality. Coming from a society where the question of homosexuality has only sparked a debate (a very immature one) in the last 5 to 10 years, I haven't myself formed an opinion which I would want to see part of our evolving identity. Until then, I have the very same respect to homosexuals that I have to heterosexuals.

Labeling those people as ignorant is in fact a discriminative attitude, one which denies them the right to form an opinion like you form yours, subjectively.

[Aaron Veteran]

Please don't say I am wrong without doing your research; I am clearly right in this case: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination

As shown in definitions 2 and 3, the term 'discrimination' includes beliefs and choices as well as acts.

It's not about subscribing to my 'belief'. You could say I'm discriminating against your belief - that would be correct. The difference is, those who believe homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality hold a belief which can cause harm to innocent people, indirectly. If everybody thought homosexuality wasn't equal, the consequence would be laws created to oppress homosexuals.

By the way, there is no agenda. What makes you people think homosexuals have some sort of agenda? All they want is to be seen as equal because they are equal. Would you not feel the same if the majority of people were homosexual and they believed heterosexuality was not equal and not natural?

That is your agenda (one I 100% agree with). Don't deny it, embrace it and champion it. You DO have an agenda, don't think that term is necessarily a negative.

[Calum Veteran]

It comes down to that bold part. Some people, intelligent and non ignorant, who have developed an opinion just like you developed yours, based on their own analysis, an opinion affected by their own sociocultural values, view homosexuality differently. It doesn't make them ignorant, because your very own opinion is also a very subjective one as far as this issue is concerned. Their attitude (no matter how discriminative you label it) is their own effort to reject values they deem dangerous.

Please do not jump into any conclusions about my opinion when it comes to homosexuality. Coming from a society where the question of homosexuality has only sparked a debate (a very immature one) in the last 5 to 10 years, I haven't myself formed an opinion which I would want to see part of our evolving identity. Until then, I have the very same respect to homosexuals that I have to heterosexuals.

Labeling those people as ignorant is in fact a discriminative attitude, one which denies them the right to form an opinion like you form yours, subjectively.

Are you saying some people think homosexuality harms other people or society then? That is actually not an opinion because fact dictates that homosexuality (as it currently stands) doesn't harm society - nobody who has stated that has been able to prove that it does, but reality has been able to prove that it does not.

I see what you're saying about opinions and not labelling them as ignorant - it makes sense - but when somebody is prejudice against those who harm nobody in society, is that really right? Shouldn't something be done to prevent that?

That is your agenda (one I 100% agree with). Don't deny it, embrace it and champion it. You DO have an agenda, don't think that term is necessarily a negative.

You are of course correct :D Thank you for pointing out that silly mistake to me. Maybe I really should start thinking a bit more before I post :blush:

That's a difficult question I really can't answer without sounding like a hypocrite. I don't know, put in extreme scenarios people tend to develop their basic survival instinct so I guess I'll either go to another country or fight for my life.

Thank you for the honest answer. It really is a tricky one. It's just a shame there is so much hate and inequality in the world :(

[Darth Laidher]

They need to reinstate her ASAP.She isn't even on the job yet.Punish her for what she does on the job but don't punish someone for what you think is going to happen.If she gets complaints about how she goes about her job then thats fine fire her but rushing to judgment is wrong.

[HSoft]

It's not about subscribing to my 'belief'. You could say I'm discriminating against your belief - that would be correct. The difference is, those who believe homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality hold a belief which can cause harm to innocent people, indirectly. If everybody thought homosexuality wasn't equal, the consequence would be laws created to oppress homosexuals.

That would be an act. An act is different from a belief. It's really not that hard to understand.

[Dysphoria]

She can believe in whatever she chooses, and them forcing her out due to her personal believes is wrong.

You go girl!

[HSoft]

I see what you're saying about opinions and not labelling them as ignorant - it makes sense - but when somebody is prejudice against those who harm nobody in society, is that really right? Shouldn't something be done to prevent that?

According to your reasoning, you are prejudice if you hold a thought/belief. So given the emboldened statement above you are advocating that people should be arrested for their thoughts? Seriously?

Can you not see the parallels here with your viewpoints and dictatorships? That's what they do/did in some dictatorships (nazi germany, communist china etc.).

[sudo]

Are you saying some people think homosexuality harms other people or society then? That is actually not an opinion because fact dictates that homosexuality (as it currently stands) doesn't harm society - nobody who has stated that has been able to prove that it does, but reality has been able to prove that it does not.

You're failing at seeing my point, or I might just be failing at English (Most likely since I'm still learning).

Other societies have values which are different from those of your society. Those values have very high intolerance to homosexuality (among other life styles) for good reasons (good as in their own sociocultural context). Something that might look harmless to you (within your own society) can very much be destructive to the identity of other societies. Labeling those values as discriminative/ignorant simply because they're different from your own, is very much what those people reject. They want to keep their own values, they want respect towards their own values.

I'll make my point a bit more simple: when it comes to this issue, there are no facts, there are opinions.

[Solid Knight]

Perhaps she was something like my adviser for my college. I remember when I asked her about what kind of credit I'd get for my military training and she then proceeded to tell me her opinion of the war and how God should send an angel down to kill all the bad people there then everyone would receive the Word and cast aside their silly beliefs.

[Stetson]

Why doesn't anyone ever bring up the black panthers? they spew hate all the time and without a doubt theres most likely some on university campus's right now but how many news stories we hear about them. Its ok for the black man to hate the white man but not the other way around.

Why are you bringing up the idea of the Black Panthers in general? That seems a bit off topic to this situation.

If you put it into the same situation/context as the original story then I don't really see your point. If someone was a member of a black power group and said things relating to those beliefs in the classroom and around faculty members while pursuing a graduate course to become a school counselor then I would imagine that there would be problems.

[Aaron Veteran]

They need to reinstate her ASAP.She isn't even on the job yet.Punish her for what she does on the job but don't punish someone for what you think is going to happen.If she gets complaints about how she goes about her job then thats fine fire her but rushing to judgment is wrong.

She may never even be employed, which what makes this even more ridiculous. Would Albany State deny me a degree in Theology or Religion if I were an Atheist? If I complete the coursework in accordance to the guidelines they agreed to I should get a degree. The degree is merely proof of a mastery of a subject matter - it shouldn't have jack **** to do with how a person may or may not perform a job that they may or may never have. I know plenty of college educated woman who have opted to be stay at home moms instead of pursuing a career outside the home.

[Stetson]

She may never even be employed, which what makes this even more ridiculous. Would Albany State deny me a degree in Theology or Religion if I were an Atheist? If I complete the coursework in accordance to the guidelines they agreed to I should get a degree. The degree is merely proof of a mastery of a subject matter - it shouldn't have jack **** to do with how a person may or may not perform a job that they may or may never have. I know plenty of college educated woman who have opted to be stay at home moms instead of pursuing a career outside the home.

I don't think that your personal opinions on religion would affect things in that situation. In fact, if you were learning about the history of religions and their impact on society from an objective standpoint, being an Atheist might actually be a benefit.

Now, if you went out on an archaeological dig that was deemed historically significant and you purposefully started smashing precious historical artifacts that were related to religion because you think that anything to do with religion should be destroyed, then that would be a problem.

It isn't just about person opinions, it's about what you do with them and how they influence your respect and treatment of others. If she's going to get the "stamp of approval" from the university at a master's level to be a school counselor then she needs to show that she can put aside her personal opinions and truly do her best to help people no matter their situation.

[Gotenks98]

I think what the university did is bull crap. A person has the right to view things the way they want to. I dont think she was "gay-bashing" but just having a strong view point on it. Think of it another way. Lets say you opened a fertility clinic and a gay couple came to you and said they wanted a child. You have every right to refuse them if you dont feel its going to be in the best interest of the child. All you can do is refer them to someone who will do the precedure.