For Apple Followers, It's a Matter of Faith

[lunarworks]

I've been an Apple fan since before half the people on this forum were born. I've been dealing with PC fanboys for two decades, and most of them have never used a Mac for more than 5 minutes, if at all. They just spew out anti-Apple talking points. The same words out of just about all of them. Haters gonna hate.

BTW, I also use Windows in my daily life, build my own PCs (I enjoy it), beta-test Windows, and make part of my living fixing and maintaining Windows-based systems. And I didn't buy an iPhone, I bought a Nokia.

[Boz]

Apple didn't invent such a notion, just capitalized on it.

Nope.. they created that notion by insulting everyone constantly by producing ads that treat and show PC users and everyone else really who's not using their products as idiots, not cool, inferior etc etc..

They have created this superiority complex where people buy a lot of their stuff for the status and the fact they want desperately to be cool.

Then, they go and DRM the crap out of everything you buy through their store so, you as a consumer, cannot get out of it without losing money. I know a lot of people who would switch to something else like DroidX or new crazy PC laptops or other things but they can't because everything they bought only works on Apple hardware and they don't want to lose thousands of dollars of investments because Apple simply doesn't want to license anything (such as FairPlay). Not to mention the fact that they always create "accessories" you have to buy from them to use hardware and other standardized equipment from the rest of the world (aka mini DisplayPort to DVI dongles and plenty other stuff like that)

That's how they capitalize on it..

[Boz]

And Boz has a history of continuously attacking Apple. Like I said, it goes both ways.

And yes, I will always attack them.. I use their products, have experienced their business practices (aka "you are holding it wrong", or "we can't really fix your issues right now, but you'll have to wait until we release a new version of that product so you can buy it") many times so far until I realized that the only thing that's worth buying from Apple is their laptops and only if you want form factor.

The company itself is rotten to the core..

I will stop attacking them when they open up.. when they embrace competition and allow people to willingly leave their platform and take their content to other PCs or sync their devices with 3rd party software of my liking and not their piece of crap iTunes.

We all know that will never happen because Apple is too greedy, too controlling and they wouldn't be able to force people to continue buying their hardware after they realize that Apple hardware is just as flawed and has issues like anything out there.

I really speculate, but I'm absolutely sure that at least half of Mac/Apple users would leave Apple platform if they could, but they can't because their whole lives and content is connected to their DRMed Apple devices so they can't switch and start over without making huge sacrifices both financially and emotionally.

Many of these Apple users also don't want to admit they've been duped and are frustrated with the fact they can't do anything about it. So they don't want to feel like idiots so they keep defending Apple.

After many conversations with some of my friends who live Apple, it always comes down to them admitting it. It's not perfect, it's very limiting and they would really try other stuff but they can't move all their stuff from Apple to other platforms.

[Elliott]

Guys, if you look at +Elliott posts history, all of them are defending Apple .... so no use arguing with him ...

If I started spewing baseless crap about Android and its users (or insert any product/company and its users/patrons), I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people that would come to vehemently defend it and rightfully so.

By the way, I do have problems with Apple. For instance, I feel like their quality control is slipping big time (read: iPhone 4) as they ramp up production and try to meet the deadlines investors want. I also think that Steve Jobs is extremely egotistical and, recently, pretty megalomaniacal. He's a smart CEO, but he seriously needs to rein in his attitude. It's getting Apple into a lot of trouble. I also don't really agree with the walled garden approach to iOS. I have no issues with Apple having strict control over their own app store, but I think sideloading should be allowed for those that want to be more adventurous without voiding their warranties. If Apple can support OS X with all of its user-created tweaks, I think they could support iOS just the same (just void the warranty if people install Flash :p). I have a laundry list of other gripes, but I can't remember them all right now. :laugh:

Apple is in no way a perfect company. They have plenty of flaws and have taken plenty of missteps over the years. However, for my needs, they still continue to produce some of the best products I could use today. Whenever I'm choosing a product, I look at all the options very objectively, but, at the same time, I don't just read tech specs and price tags. I look at what I can buy that will serve my needs the best in both my personal life and work (mostly work; why buy something if you can't recoup the costs?). In most cases, it's an Apple product. If I had a different job, I could just as easily be using an Android/WM phone and a Windows PC (as a matter of fact, I used to be an avid Windows user and mocked the Mac users I knew without ever actually trying a Mac).

I really speculate, but I'm absolutely sure that at least half of Mac/Apple users would leave Apple platform if they could, but they can't because their whole lives and content is connected to their DRMed Apple devices so they can't switch and start over without making huge sacrifices both financially and emotionally.

How can you speculate (the act of creating a theory without any sound evidence) and be absolutely sure at the same time? Taking it off of faith?

Many of these Apple users also don't want to admit they've been duped and are frustrated with the fact they can't do anything about it. So they don't want to feel like idiots so they keep defending Apple.

After many conversations with some of my friends who live Apple, it always comes down to them admitting it. It's not perfect, it's very limiting and they would really try other stuff but they can't move all their stuff from Apple to other platforms.

I'm sure there are plenty that are like that, just like there might be Android users that can't switch to iOS because they invested a lot into apps for their device. Hell, plenty of people tell me that they'd like to try switching to a Mac but can't because all their software is on Windows. It's not that the software doesn't exist for OS X, but they just don't want to reinvest in all of it (and rightfully so; it's not cheap). Long term investments are long term investments no matter what side of the coin you're on.

Not to mention the fact that they always create "accessories" you have to buy from them to use hardware and other standardized equipment from the rest of the world (aka mini DisplayPort to DVI dongles and plenty other stuff like that)

In the iDevice world, that's a problem for quite a few people (because of the proprietary dock connector and those ridiculous authentication chips). In the Mac world, that's a non-issue. There are third-party manufacturers with perfectly working converters (like so) that sell for a fraction of the cost of the Apple-made ones. Mini DisplayPort is a VESA standard, by the way.

[lunarworks]

Then, they go and DRM the crap out of everything you buy through their store so, you as a consumer, cannot get out of it without losing money. I know a lot of people who would switch to something else like DroidX or new crazy PC laptops or other things but they can't because everything they bought only works on Apple hardware and they don't want to lose thousands of dollars of investments because Apple simply doesn't want to license anything (such as FairPlay)

Well damn, I didn't know Android/Windows users could switch to iPhone/Mac with such ease. All those apps they bought are compatible with iOS/OSX?

As for media... Apple's music is all DRM-free, all the stuff you rip yourself is DRM-free, and please, show me a store where I can buy Hollywood movies and TV shows unencumbered by DRM. (Also, show me a bunch of people who have mostly videos on their phone rather than music.)

[Morsolo]

I really hate for my first post on here to be in an Apple vs. Microsoft debate... But oh well, I thought I'd weigh in, trying to avoid being biased.

(And as soon as I typed that out, I just know that is going to be thrown out the window pretty quickly, but I figure I'll leave it in for hypocritical humour...)

I've never liked Apple, as a company (wow, that was fast). I've always found their marketing efforts heavily reliant on their "iSheep". They are stuck up in their egotistical bubble and they think they can just do anything they want and they'll get away with it; which they can. However, it is not the products themselves that infuriate me, the iMac is a great PC, the iPhone a great Mobile, the iPod a great MP3 Player

...But that is all they are. I despise the people who insist that every product with a chip in it from Apple is a revolutionary, magical, godsend that will change the way we operate technology forever. I remember reading a "Top 100 Best Technological Inventions of All Time" list somewhere and I remember seeing the iPhone as #8. Ahead of the seemingly less useful Toilet and Engine. The thing that continues to pi** me off though is, further down the list at #21 was "Mobile Phones"... Last I checked, the iPhone is a mobile phone. Apple's products continue to be RECYCLED IDEAS, that have been improved in some ways, then been polished, then been marketed to their flock as - essentially - an entire new piece of technology (rather than a new - great - product).

The iPhone 4 and it's antenna problem is the shining example of this blind following. I had a talk to a good friend of mind who is the manager of one of Telstra's retail stores (Telstra is Australia's biggest Telco, sorta like AT&T) and I asked about the issue, I asked that considering Telstra's NextG Mobile Network is amongst the best in the world, surely the iPhone problem is non-existent, or at least, minimized. His response was some laughter, followed by "no, if you still cover the gap on the right angle, it'll drop out anyway, even on NextG, even if you're under the tower, I always make sure customers buying it, purchase a bumper too, because it is needed to function."

...What else can I rant about? :p

Oh! The Apple ecosystem. It is a cheap ploy to suck in more sheep to their flock. I buy a Microsoft (or almost any other brand) product and - in turn - it will work with almost any other product. But if I buy an Apple product, all of a sudden, EVERYTHING following must be Apple too, or Apple certified. This is not helped by their extremely closed methods at Apple. ...On that note, I got myself a HTC Desire last week. BRILLIANT PHONE. It just works with everything and anything. I'll admit that Android is a bit harder to use their iOS and probably a little less stable (but by no means is it "unstable"), but once you get the hang of it, it flies; and the possibilities are endless thanks to how open it is.

I'm running out of ranting material ... *ruffles through paper and notes* ... I have a couple of nice long rants on my Blog, but I feel bad posting a link in my first post, so I'm going to refrain from doing that :)

I suppose I'll wrap it up, I can always post more once my post gets undoubtedly dissected by someone :)

In conclusion: Apple makes great products, but that is all they do and it continues to pi** me off when their iSheep just put their fingers in their ears, ignore problems and faults and just demand Apple take their money.

*puts pencil down, runs away*

[Boz]

I'm sure there are plenty that are like that, just like there might be Android users that can't switch to iOS because they invested a lot into apps for their device. Hell, plenty of people tell me that they'd like to try switching to a Mac but can't because all their software is on Windows. It's not that the software doesn't exist for OS X, but they just don't want to reinvest in all of it (and rightfully so; it's not cheap). Long term investments are long term investments no matter what side of the coin you're on.

I find it really hilarious that you are saying that Android is the same as Apple's OS? Seriously..

It seems that the point completely went over your head..

Android is OPEN OS.. tons and tons of devices will or use it now.. that's the CHOICE I'm talking about.. you don't hve to be stuck with one hardware manufacturer and one company because they enslaved your money with content you bought from them and you can't switch. I can buy apps and stuff for Nexus One and use it on any other Android phone and since Android is open and anyone can use it, almost all hardware manufacturers will have it so I can pick whatever I like most technology wise. That's the point.

Honestly are we even arguing this.. THere is no reasonable human being who can say that Apple's model is ok. It's not, in any shape or form.. It's a ripoff that forces you to constantly buy their devices..

There is a huge loophole in the legal system.. They should punish any company using DRM that is not allowing their DRM to be licensed. Especially companies like Apple who make software and hardware. It's a type of monopoly over consumers that is not addressed at all.. and thus they get away with it.

If Apple licensed their FairPlay DRM (including videos, TV shows etc) and allowed their devices to be synced by something other than iTunes and be viewed on other devices beside Apple only ones, I really wouldn't have as many negative views about Apple.. That's what free market is.. competition.. you should be able to view content (you didn't make) on any device (under some license) and no company should be allowed to blackmail you from using their services or hardware because of content DRM.

It should be about a company making hardware that competes on capabilities, quality and so forth. Not content, that btw, they didn't make. Since Apple hugely overprices their hardware to keep their margins high this is why they don't want to open up their platform. Very little people would buy it.. this is why a lot of people keeps buying new stuff from Apple when it comes out.. It's because they crave features other platforms and devices have but they had to wait until Apple decides they can get it and of course they pay through the nose for it.

This is why Apple can get away with anything with their customers.. They know they blackmailed them, they know they can do whatever they can once they hook you in and that's why they can get away with coming out with a product that lacks so many things and then release 2.0 version with minimal additions and then 3.0 with another set of minimal additions etc etc.. they sell you the same product 3 times.

It's like a drug dealer. They sell you drugs for the first time, you become dependent on it and then they rip you off with money to get upgrades on their new hardware because your stuff works only on their computers/devices. The fact that they enslave you and that's the only way they can keep consumers buying their hardware is downright awful.

Laws really need to change so consumers have a choice and no company can do crap like Apple does.

And before you say other companies have DRM too.. it's true ... BUT THEY LICENSE THEIR DRM TO OTHER MANUFACTURERS! That's a HUGE difference.

[Joshie]

Anyone commented yet on what this says about the free market? It's amazing how many Apple product owners don't like "Apple's ways", but like their merchandise and buy stuff. It's remarkable how, as long as you produce something that looks great and doesn't skin puppies, the forces of the free market will never self-regulate.

[Vice]

Anyone commented yet on what this says about the free market? It's amazing how many Apple product owners don't like "Apple's ways", but like their merchandise and buy stuff. It's remarkable how, as long as you produce something that looks great and doesn't skin puppies, the forces of the free market will never self-regulate.

How long have you used your Email client? Or your IM Client or some FTP software or some Video Playback software?

Probably a long time for a few if not all of those. Because once people find something they like they stick with it. They don't change just to change unless they are unhappy with what they have already.

Apple do not support open markets but there own products are so strong that the people continually buying them often state that they prefer what Apple is serving vs what they could get from a more open ecosystem. People are willing to spend more money on Apple hardware to use Apples operating system just to get access to programs like iWork, iLife, Final Cut, Motion, Aperture and so on. If apple didn't make the software people wanted they would go elsewhere.

And lets not forget all Macs can dual boot Windows. If Apple customers buy a Mac and are not happy they can return it or install Windows and use it like a normal PC. They can even dual boot and use whatever software they have purchased for OS X whilst still using Windows.

And ya know this goes in the opposite direction too. Microsoft has been involved in a lot of anti-trust cases where they have been found guilty of abusing their market leadership to squash competitors. People keep saying Apple is the only one with bad buisness practices and offer Microsoft being the alternative but they cancelled PlaysForSure when they came out with the Zune, they are not going to allow you to install software on your Windows 7 phone unless its from the Microsoft Store which they will regulate just like Apple does. Am I saying this excuses Apples behavior because others are doing the same thing? No of course not. I'm just pointing out that no mater where you go you'll be locked in to something. I couldn't even watch Blurays on my PC until I upgraded my monitors to be HDCP compatible. I consider that a major restriction and one that was a seriously costly upgrade.

[Morsolo]

Anyone commented yet on what this says about the free market? It's amazing how many Apple product owners don't like "Apple's ways", but like their merchandise and buy stuff. It's remarkable how, as long as you produce something that looks great and doesn't skin puppies, the forces of the free market will never self-regulate.

I'm detecting that was directed at me, or at least triggered by something I said. (Perhaps I'm just being paranoid, or egotistical... or both)

Either way (just to clarify things for myself): I have NEVER brought a single Apple product and nor have I ever personally even had an Apple product; and I am very proud to say that.

But, I do agree with what you're saying; I think it isn't even the "don't skin puppies" part. I mean, other than ethical (and well, legal) issues... Apple probably could skin puppies and still sell their product.

And lets not forget all Macs can dual boot Windows. If Apple customers buy a Mac and are not happy they can return it or install Windows and use it like a normal PC. They can even dual boot and use whatever software they have purchased for OS X whilst still using Windows.

Who cares? When you purchase a Mac, you agree to purchasing an overpriced computer. If you then run Windows on it, you've defeated all possible purposes of buying it in the first place. Unless it is about the PURE status symbol to you, in which case, you should be ashamed of yourself. (and I don't mean you "Vice", I mean "you" an in the general person, not directed at anyone directly)

[Vice]

Who cares? When you purchase a Mac, you agree to purchasing an overpriced computer. If you then run Windows on it, you've defeated all possible purposes of buying it in the first place. Unless it is about the PURE status symbol to you, in which case, you should be ashamed of yourself. (and I don't mean you "Vice", I mean "you" an in the general person, not directed at anyone directly)

Who cares? The 500,000 people who downloaded the Boot Camp beta (data from Steve Jobs at WWDC 2006). Just because someone owns a Mac doesn't mean they don't want or need Windows software. I personally know people who run OS X most of the time then re-boot in to Windows to play Windows games which haven't been released for Mac OS X. A Windows license is much cheaper than an XBOX 360 or a PS3 after you've already got the Mac hardware.

I also know someone who runs vmware on his Mac to use Visual Studio and he sometimes boots that natively via Boot Camp for extra performance. This way he can develop for Mac OS X with XCode and Visual Studio for Windows with .net

There are many reasons to want to run Windows on a Mac and Gaming is probably one of the biggest due to the lack of OS X ports. Personally I ran Windows 7 on my MacBook Pro just to test the betas and RCs before it was final. That is how I evaluated the software before I put it on my main desktop PC system. Boot Camp made it really easy to install it and then remove it when I was done.

[Morsolo]

Who cares? The 500,000 people who downloaded the Boot Camp beta (data from Steve Jobs at WWDC 2006). Just because someone owns a Mac doesn't mean they don't want or need Windows software. I personally know people who run OS X most of the time then re-boot in to Windows to play Windows games which haven't been released for Mac OS X. Windows license is much cheaper than an XBOX 360 or a PS3 after you've already got the Mac hardware.

There are many reasons to want to run Windows on a Mac and Gaming is probably one of the biggest due to the lack of OS X ports. Personally I ran Windows 7 on my MacBook Pro just to test the betas and RCs before it was final. That is how I evaluated the software before I put it on my main desktop PC system. Boot Camp made it really easy to install it and then remove it when I was done.

Ok, I'll back down on that particular situation. A lot of the people I know with Macs who dual-boot do it for the games.

More specifically: I meant the select few who install Windows over OS X (not dual-booting). I mean, what's the point of doing that?

[Vice]

I don't know anyone who runs just windows on there Mac. Better to run both and get 100% of the software market. Not including Linux of course but you could Triple boot a Mac and dual boot a PC to get that too.

[Morsolo]

I don't know anyone who runs just windows on there Mac. Better to run both and get 100% of the software market.

Haha, I do. Every time I see them pull out their Macbook and I see it boot into Windows 7 I feel like smashing it over their head.

Off-Topic: That's a snazzy Sig you've got Vice. Was it made in a 3D Rendering program? Or just some good Photoshopping? (Or something else entirely)

[Vice]

How do you know they don't have OS X on there too? You can set it to automatically boot to Windows or OS X without a boot loader appearing. In-fact that is the default behavior.

EDIT:// I made the signature in Photoshop. I'm just that good :laugh:

[Simon Veteran]

I can't believe I seem to be the only one in this thread who thinks the study, even just the idea of this study, is absolutely absurd.

Seriously. People don't pray to Steve Jobs. They buy products made by his company. Maybe it's brand loyalty, or maybe (and more likely) they like the reputation Apple has. The iPod was a simple device that single handedly created the portable media player market. Such devices existed before, yes, but they simply hadn't caught on. When Apple, a company with nearly no reputation at this point besides the iMac, came in with a simple solution, people liked it. And they sold millions upon millions, to this very day.

It is very common to buy products based on a company's reputation, not just the brand itself. Heck, that's why my mom uses a PC - she's used Windows for most of her computing life, and realizes that Microsoft has a good reputation for making good products. She uses an iPod touch because of the reputation Apple has for making simple and portable devices.

Why would someone buy an Android phone from Google - and most of these products don't carry the Google name prominently - when they can get an iPhone from Apple and know that the experience they get will be similar to what they have on their iPod?

There is no religion here, at least not in a way unique to Apple. There are people on the Microsoft side of the fence, too. There are people just as dedicated to getting their coffee from Starbucks. There are people just as dedicated to getting their car from GM. There are people just as dedicated to Canon or Nikon - heck, that debate makes the Apple vs. Microsoft debate look like fun.

So this article is simply absurd.

[sundayx Veteran]

I agree with Simon, and the fact that people who buy an Apple product is immediately classified as somewhat of a 'fanboy', or even just wanting one. Their products may not be revolutionary, but they do release products that no other company can do well on, and other companies tend to follow their trend.

[treemonster]

most people who buy apple don't even know what they're buying or why they're buying it.

it just has to be an ipod because apple pretty much invented mp3 players and that's what mp3 players called, ipods. right?

or it has to be an iphone because apple pretty much invented the smart phone and that's what a smart phone is right? and ofc an iphone is the best smart phone out there right?

but why are these products actually any better than their competitors?

i mean i've known people that went through new ipods every month because of one reason or another my cheap no name brand mp3 player survived time and time again.

it's marketing. people buy apple based on the perception that it is somehow better without actually telling you how it's better.

take for example the i'm a mac commercials, or pretty much every mac commercial ever made. it's always been because "PC"s are bad. or windows is bad. or some how worse. in some mythical way. there are numerous parodies of this on the net to the degree that's it's pretty much a huge joke to windows fans.

why did people buy the ipad? it's pretty much just a big smart phone that doesn't do flash or calls and is less mobile. it's about the size and weight of a netbook but with less "real" functionality.

why did people upgrade from the last version of the iphone to the iphone 4?

why does updating quicktime force you to install itunes or not update at all?

why do updates to osx that are the size of a large windows service pack or two cost as much as a windows vista/7 ultimate oem license?

why is a track pad that you can't use a stylus on cost more than a device with similar functionality plus the ability to use a stylus on? why is the apple device news and the second device barely heard of?

why is every little thing that apple does or steve jobs writes in a two word email reply front page news? on a website whose primary community started off and flourished on the windows platform community?

and why can't i buy a full copy of osx to install on any PC hardware i choose legally?

[Growled Member]

There is no religion here, at least not in a way unique to Apple. There are people on the Microsoft side of the fence, too. There are people just as dedicated to getting their coffee from Starbucks. There are people just as dedicated to getting their car from GM. There are people just as dedicated to Canon or Nikon - heck, that debate makes the Apple vs. Microsoft debate look like fun.

So this article is simply absurd.

I agree, the article is absurd. Brand loyalty does exist and it exists because people trust in the name or they has used something from that company in the past and have had a good experience with it. It has nothing to do with religion. For example, I prefer Luzianne Tea and I buy it not because it's a religious preference but because I enjoy the taste. I can and do drink other brands but when given a choice I choose Luzianne.

[nub]

I think when you ignore logic it becomes a religion.

[mollick2]

I agree, the article is absurd. Brand loyalty does exist and it exists because people trust in the name or they has used something from that company in the past and have had a good experience with it. It has nothing to do with religion. For example, I prefer Luzianne Tea and I buy it not because it's a religious preference but because I enjoy the taste. I can and do drink other brands but when given a choice I choose Luzianne.

Apple loyalists take it a bit far. I've met one who said he has no signal problems at all with his phone but suffers occasional dropped calls. I witnessed two dropped calls in a matter of 10-15 minutes prior to asking him. Idk too many other brand loyalists that are that blind to ignore such a major issue.

[Boz]

I personally know people who run OS X most of the time then re-boot in to Windows to play Windows games which haven't been released for Mac OS X. A Windows license is much cheaper than an XBOX 360 or a PS3 after you've already got the Mac hardware.

And there is the pinnacle of apple hypocrisy. They are more them happy to piggy back on other OS succcess because they are not closed and allow different hardware to run it but ruthlessly close their own stuff.

Imagine the outcry from apple if Microsoft prevented Windows from running on Apple hardware.

Apple would be bitching and moaning and the fact is their sales would be miniscule if you couldn't install Windows on your Mac. It would be really useful and would still be at 1 or 2% marketshare.

Furthermore imagine if Microsoft prevented iTunes on Windows because it competes with Windows Media Player or their Zune store like Apple does on their platforms.

Apple would be NOWHERE.

the reason they have managed to achieve this is because unlike apple other companies including Microsoft let them and understand that giving a user a choice is good.

I really wish Microsoft would be like Apple and completely locked good Apple out of PC platform. That would effectively shut apple down permanently.

[Wanderermy]

I really wish Microsoft would be like Apple and completely locked good Apple out of PC platform. That would effectively shut apple down permanently.

The thing is ok for Apple lock other out but I bet if Microsoft do... people bitching ANTITRUST! and the EU going to have a field trip with it.

Take a look at the Browsers Ballot screen, apparent it's not ok for MS to bundle IE in Windows but it's ok for Apple to bundle Safari in Mac OSX and they practically locked down iPhone with Safari.

[Simon Veteran]

And there is the pinnacle of apple hypocrisy. They are more them happy to piggy back on other OS succcess because they are not closed and allow different hardware to run it but ruthlessly close their own stuff.

Imagine the outcry from apple if Microsoft prevented Windows from running on Apple hardware.

Apple would be bitching and moaning and the fact is their sales would be miniscule if you couldn't install Windows on your Mac. It would be really useful and would still be at 1 or 2% marketshare.

Furthermore imagine if Microsoft prevented iTunes on Windows because it competes with Windows Media Player or their Zune store like Apple does on their platforms.

Apple would be NOWHERE.

the reason they have managed to achieve this is because unlike apple other companies including Microsoft let them and understand that giving a user a choice is good.

I really wish Microsoft would be like Apple and completely locked good Apple out of PC platform. That would effectively shut apple down permanently.

But it doesn't work anything like that. OS X has never run on PC's, meaning they don't discriminate against just HP, or just Dell. They isolate their software to their own hardware. Microsoft can't just discriminate against Apple - first of all, that would be a stupid idea, because they'd lose revenue, and second of all, it is unfair to say to one company "No, you can't have this" while selling the software on the she;ves for *everyone else* to use.

And Apple doesn't deny other media players on any platform. Last.fm and Pandora are on the App Store if I recall correctly, and you can run whatever you feel like running on a Mac.

Finally... when I see a Mac user, they're usually running OS X. I'm pretty sure most of the people on a Mac use it as a Mac.

All in all... I don't see any sense in your post whatsoever, except a strangely strong and passionate grudge against a company that has somehow managed to, I dunno, insult you and your entire family in some cruel and unforgivable way.

Microsoft's participated in some shady business practices too, don'tcha know?

[Boz]

But it doesn't work anything like that. OS X has never run on PC's, meaning they don't discriminate against just HP, or just Dell.

Absolutely wrong.. OSX didn't run on PCs because it used RISC architecture .. It was incompatible.. that meant you couldn't really run Windows as a native OS on any Mac computer which doomed Apple to irrelevant marketshare in personal computers.

When Apple switched to x86 architecture they basically became a PC. They use Intel processors (Xeons, i7s etc) and PC GPUs with modified firmware but Apple doesn't want Macs to be PCs.. They want to treat as their own platform.

Apple deliberately prevents any x86 PC from legally running it because again they want to be a separate platform.. It's completely discriminatory and I don't really understand what you are comparing here. The reason they don't allow OSX to run on PCs is because they treat Apple platform as something else.

Well if that's the case, than Windows shouldn't be allowed to run on that platform to make it the same. There would be no discrimination. It would be exactly the same as Apple does.

Bottom line is.. you CAN run OSX on PC.. because it's the same architecture.. yet Apple doesn't allow it.. Same with Microsoft.. they could say Apple platform and hardware is a separate platform and we don't want Apple running Windows because they have their own OSX.

If you can't see hypocrisy here than I guess we have nothing to discuss because it's useless.

They isolate their software to their own hardware. Microsoft can't just discriminate against Apple - first of all, that would be a stupid idea, because they'd lose revenue, and second of all, it is unfair to say to one company "No, you can't have this" while selling the software on the she;ves for *everyone else* to use.

Yes they can.. just like Apple doesn't allow OSX to run on "other platform" aka PC, Microsoft can stop Windows running on Apple platform. Apple sells specialized hardware for their machines, specialized graphic cards, and so on.. they can very well be treated as a different platform.

As for revenue.. Well Apple is stupid for not allowing OSX to run on x86 computers because from revenue standpoint they would make a bundle if they opened OSX. Yet they don't.. so the whole argument (Microsoft losing money preventing Windows running on 4-5% of computers won't hurt them a bit). Apple loses more here. So your comment doesn't make sense.

And Apple doesn't deny other media players on any platform. Last.fm and Pandora are on the App Store if I recall correctly, and you can run whatever you feel like running on a Mac.

Last.fm and Pandora are cloud based services. They are not software per se.. Apple is known to prevent any apps on their platforms (aka iOS, OSX etc) where the application or service directly competes with their own services. Good example is that you can't buy Amazon songs on iOS in digital format for example.

You can run stuff that apple allows you.. not what you feel like running.. and they have been very well know to ban apps from their platforms that directly interfere with their bottom line. I would advise you to read their Developer Agreements in depth because that would make it perfectly clear for you.. btw, I can't post it here because they legally don't allow me to discuss terms and conditions of developer agreement and their EULAs..

Some company eh.

Finally... when I see a Mac user, they're usually running OS X. I'm pretty sure most of the people on a Mac use it as a Mac.

Yep... and those who do use it would account for about 2% of market share if there was no BootCamp.. let's be realistic here .. Apple wouldn't be here in marketshare if big companies like Microsoft didn't allow them.

If they did the same things as Apple does to protect their platform, you wouldn't see iTunes on Windows systems, you wouldn't see Windows running on any Mac etc..

The big selling point of macs today IS the fact that they can run Windows.. if it wasn't for that, I don't know anyone in mainstream who would buy a Mac for anything really because you NEED Windows if you do anything serious (if you want to game, if you want to run Windows specific software etc). That's what doomed Macs to begin with and why they had 1-2% marketshare constantly until they produced Macs that can in fact run Windows.

All in all... I don't see any sense in your post whatsoever, except a strangely strong and passionate grudge against a company that has somehow managed to, I dunno, insult you and your entire family in some cruel and unforgivable way.

Any company like Apple scumbag insults me and is awful for the industry. I don't want to allow if I can any company to gain marketshare or get a pass on horrible things Apple does. If we lived in Apple world, there would be no competition, there would be no progress but what Apple deems valid, you would have zero choice but only to buy products and software form them etc etc.. I use Apple products just like any other product because they are nicely designed, but mostly because I have to build applications and projects for Apple platform that again I can only develop on Apple hardware. Another awful thing to add.

NO THANKS!! I'd rather see them wiped out and lose out on some slickness of the devices, then have them set precedents in tech industry with their crap. All I would like to see is that law treats them the same as it would treat Microsoft or others. If Apple can ban software, hardware and other things accessing their devices so should others and this would mean no Windows on Apple hardware and it would be totally ok by me. Then Apple would fight on the merits of their hardware and not selling their hardware, trumpetting how it's awesome and OSX is the best and then say "Oh you see you can play games on Windows on it too".. It's completely retarded and so hypocritical it's beyond ridiculous.

Microsoft's participated in some shady business practices too, don'tcha know?

And btw, we are not talking about Microsoft here.. and without a doubt yes they did.. and they paid for it. Nobody is saying Microsoft is peaches, but they are far better than Apple in EVERY aspect of taking care of their users, developers and overall pretty non-discriminatory. Plus they license their stuff too.. You can pay for it and use it but you don't..

Apple does no such thing.

Again, Apple is currently about 100 times worse than any other company including Microsoft. The only reason they get away with it is because they are still not holding enough marketshare which is I think is utterly ridiculous. They should be pursued and legally sanctioned because they have vertical monopoly in their field due to their vertical integration (software + hardware). The reason why they are not, is because tech laws are so behind the curve that half of them would have to rewritten completely.

Not to mention the fact that Apple is trying now to patent SERVICES!!!! So you can't build services due to their patents.. It's disgusting thought if they are allowed to do that..

One such thing right now and what they are doing is to patent hotel reservations and resorts, how you buy tickets online and so forth.. They really want to completely close things up and own it so you can't invent anything that remotely resembles theirs.

It's downright awful.