win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[Dot Matrix]

Users are going to need to make changes to their habits if they wish to continue forward, same with any new OS release. Clinging to the past is nothing but detrimental to you. Like it or not the OS is changing, and no, do not expect Windows 9 to magically revive the 9x paradigm. Ready or not, Metro is here.

[HawkMan]

Dflyout menus are horrible, it's far faster to just search for whatever using the start menu/screen search

[devHead]

Ever notice that among the pro metro crowd that it is always the users fault for not liking something and never any fault on behalf of ms.

Kinda tells ya something, doesn't it....

+1, or well, I'm just resistant to change. I'm not; I've loved every time Microsoft has changed Windows from 3.11 up to now, even if there's a learning curve to start off with. And I cannot believe that I'm among a tiny miniscule minority that uses features that Microsoft implemented in Windows 7 which are now being removed in Windows 8.

Good lord people, the Start screen is a giant tablet touch screen! I don't care what anyone says, it's not designed for a Desktop or Laptop, and just because it's different isn't the reason I can't get used to it.

[devHead]

1. I don't see how people are dolts for not using hundreds of different applications a day. I tend to use the same 6 to 10 applications every day at work and I'm not using Facebook or Twitter. My Start Menu is completely static. I might use a couple of additional applications from time to time but Windows knows that I use them infrequently so it doesn't add them to the frequently used list (as you'd expect). The end result is that the list is static and the frequently used functionality is redundant.

If you feel that none of this applies to you then I'm afraid you are the minority and it doesn't make sense to design just for you.

2. You're just splitting hairs given that the jump list only works for pinned or frequently used apps on the Start Menu. Pinning these apps to the Taskbar is a no-brainer and something you probably should do anyway given that they are apps that you use frequently.

3. Whether the Start Screen works well with touch is irrelevant because it also works well with a mouse. The menu functionality you describe is poorly designed and only gets worse each time Microsoft adds something to the Control Panel. Furthermore, access to drives, folders and control panel items is available through search and arguably a lot easier and a lot faster to access that way. You're stuck with a Windows 9x mindset and ignoring improvements introduced with the addition of search to the Start Menu/Screen. The menus you use are redundant and, once again, you will find that they are only used by a small minority of people.

4. If you have a desktop PC then there are countless ways that you can configure it to shut down. I fail to see how this is even a problem given the fact that at most you'll only shut your PC down a couple of times per day. I also think it's important that Windows 8 works consistently across PCs and tablets so users have a consistent/familiar experience. Losing easy access to a little-used button seems a small sacrifice to make to accomplish this.

It's quite clear that you've picked up habits from ancient versions of Windows and are just resistant to change. Windows 8 works just as well with a keyboard and mouse as it does with touch and it's just silly to suggest that it's less productive when you're stuck using some of the least productive/useful functionality that probably should have been dumped years ago.

1. Bro, people aren't dolts for using just a few applications; heck, I don't use hundreds. But the fact that the Start Screen has big buttons on it at first for social networking and junk shows exactly who Microsoft is targeting with this release. The mass of people who just post junk on their Facebook and Twitter pages. Now, that's fine for them, but I don't even use such services. So, you're right I can get rid of them. But why is the start menu filling the whole screen? Is that really necessary? Well, yes it is absolutely necessary if you're designing for a tablet. So, that's what we're all stuck with. A Start screen on a PC designed for a tablet and / or smartphone.

2. But what if I don't want all those programs pinned to my Taskbar? There's no other choice now. It's been removed primarily because they had to stick a tablet UI for the Start menu now.

3. It might work well with a mouse, but it's designed primarily for touch first, then for mouse / keyboard. I don't need big buttons for every single app. But I have no choice again because the start menu / screen is designed primarily for tablets.

4. Actually, I rarely shutdown or reboot my machine; I put it to sleep. but even that is now hidden and not easily discoverable. I'm not talking about just how many clicks it takes to get to it. Mostly, how do you find it? You have to hover somewhere before something magically appears that you can click.

what should i have dumped years ago? Jump-lists? They just came out in Windows 7! They were brand new, and I found them to be awesome, especially on the Start menu. But now they've been ditched! How are they the least productive or useful? Maybe to you.

[Dot Matrix]

Good lord people, the Start screen is a giant tablet touch screen! I don't care what anyone says, it's not designed for a Desktop or Laptop, and just because it's different isn't the reason I can't get used to it.

You need to get over this whole "touch only" BS. Metro is more than just a touch UI. It was designed *for both* tablet and desktop use.

[devHead]

You need to get over this whole "touch only" BS. Metro is more than just a touch UI. It was designed *for both* tablet and desktop use.

Yeah, I realize that, but it's first for touch, then for mouse and keyboard. Besides, you know what? I don't want anything for touch on my desktop PC. It's not a matter of getting over anything. I just think it's bad UI design. But you're right, it's just my opinion.

[devHead]

Please can you provide a source for that statement, I would like to explore the data. I for one have used both since their inception.

Thank you; I can't believe I'm the only one.

[Rickkins]

yep i totally messed that up :p... ehh time i call it a night

Been there, done that. Sleep well.

[Rickkins]

You need to get over this whole "touch only" BS. Metro is more than just a touch UI. It was designed *for both* tablet and desktop use.

Erm....no, actually, it was not. But keep on saying it, perhaps you'll eventually convince yourself that it's true.

Oh wait.... :)

[HawkMan]

There was an article right here on neowin about it late last year I believe.

As for the raw numbers, MS is not going to hand out those to ANYONE those are trades rest as its the biggest and most comprehensive statistics and database of user behaviour around.

People don't build windows around minorities, they build it based on how the majority use it, and if they have to sacrifice some power user functions or extra functions that are used by a statistical non entity, they will. Espesically when it will save them millions in developement, bug hunting and QnA.

[HawkMan]

Erm....no, actually, it was not. But keep on saying it, perhaps you'll eventually convince yourself that it's true.

Oh wait.... :)

Try to actually use it and you'll find that not ony does it work just as great with mouse and keyboard, some functions even work better.

[Rickkins]

There was an article right here on neowin about it late last year I believe.

As for the raw numbers, MS is not going to hand out those to ANYONE those are trades rest as its the biggest and most comprehensive statistics and database of user behaviour around.

People don't build windows around minorities, they build it based on how the majority use it, and if they have to sacrifice some power user functions or extra functions that are used by a statistical non entity, they will. Espesically when it will save them millions in developement, bug hunting and QnA.

Wow...where to start on this statement. I'm sure you "get" that absolutely nobody was clamoring for this metro nonsense on the desktop. Nobody. Nada. Zilch. And that, my fine feathered friend, is as about a minority as you can find.

As for the rest on your statement, it is just made up nonsense, unworthy of further comment.

Try to actually use it and you'll find that not ony does it work just as great with mouse and keyboard, some functions even work better.

I have tried it, for about a week. I found no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Not better, not as good, and all rather pointless.

[HawkMan]

Wow...where to start on this statement. I'm sure you "get" that absolutely nobody was clamoring for this metro nonsense on the desktop. Nobody. Nada. Zilch. And that, my fine feathered friend, is as about a minority as you can find.

As for the rest on your statement, it is just made up nonsense, unworthy of further comment.

I have tried it, for about a week. I found no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Not better, not as good, and all rather pointless.

Just because no one asks for a UI revolution doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.malso they did asks for it indirectly. The whole metro is designed around how millions, if not billions of windows users around the world use windows.

What exactly do you think the usage statistics you agree to send when installing windows are used for. Go look up the neowin article on how metro start screen was designed based on user feedback and data collection of how people use windows.

[BajiRav]

1. Bro, people aren't dolts for using just a few applications; heck, I don't use hundreds. But the fact that the Start Screen has big buttons on it at first for social networking and junk shows exactly who Microsoft is targeting with this release. The mass of people who just post junk on their Facebook and Twitter pages. Now, that's fine for them, but I don't even use such services. So, you're right I can get rid of them. But why is the start menu filling the whole screen? Is that really necessary? Well, yes it is absolutely necessary if you're designing for a tablet. So, that's what we're all stuck with. A Start screen on a PC designed for a tablet and / or smartphone.

2. But what if I don't want all those programs pinned to my Taskbar? There's no other choice now. It's been removed primarily because they had to stick a tablet UI for the Start menu now.

3. It might work well with a mouse, but it's designed primarily for touch first, then for mouse / keyboard. I don't need big buttons for every single app. But I have no choice again because the start menu / screen is designed primarily for tablets.

4. Actually, I rarely shutdown or reboot my machine; I put it to sleep. but even that is now hidden and not easily discoverable. I'm not talking about just how many clicks it takes to get to it. Mostly, how do you find it? You have to hover somewhere before something magically appears that you can click.

what should i have dumped years ago? Jump-lists? They just came out in Windows 7! They were brand new, and I found them to be awesome, especially on the Start menu. But now they've been ditched! How are they the least productive or useful? Maybe to you.

I think only valid point is for sleep, even though my desktop PC is configured to sleep with Power button, I habitually use mouse for activating sleep. They should move that to the "user menu".

[Elliott]

You need to get over this whole "touch only" BS. Metro is more than just a touch UI. It was designed *for both* tablet and desktop use.

I'm sorry, but they've done a horrible job designing it for a desktop. Currently, it's about as nice as using an iPad with a mouse. You can do it, but it's inefficient and stupid.

[xWhiplash]

I'm sorry, but they've done a horrible job designing it for a desktop. Currently, it's about as nice as using an iPad with a mouse. You can do it, but it's inefficient and stupid.

I agree.

Look, I doubt anybody here is against change. I upgraded to XP, Vista, and 7 the DAY it was on the shelves at my stores. Not once did I regret it. However, the change that Windows 8 bring is NOT for the better FOR ME and all of the other power users I know. Yeah we will still be using Windows 7, but that also hurts you indirectly because MS lost a lot of customers (that I know personally) because of this.

Therefore, I will not be upgrading to Windows 9, 10, 11, ... unless things work better FOR ME.

I can do work MUCH faster in Windows 7, so I will stick with it. I seriously doubt Apple or most Linux distributions will have launchpad/Metro ONLY interface in the future.

And to be honest, with what Apple is doing with Launchpad is FAR better than Metro. At least I get booted to my desktop by default and I can still have as many windows as I want open.

Man how bad will it be when there are Metro malware? Talk about a disadvantage to live tiles there. It doesnt have to be malware, how about just annoying programs.

I do not know about anybody else, but I do not want to have a couple of dozen live tiles animating at the same time.

If you have ever worked in IT Support, I do not want to see what some general consumer has done to their metro screen (they did not organize it at all, and downloaded so much stuff). We are talking about the same people that have close to a dozen Internet Explorer toolbars ACTIVE. You can barely see the webpage! I do not want to see their "Start Screen".

This is just an IT Support disaster waiting to happen.

[Rickkins]

Just because no one asks for a UI revolution doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.malso they did asks for it indirectly. The whole metro is designed around how millions, if not billions of windows users around the world use windows.

What exactly do you think the usage statistics you agree to send when installing windows are used for. Go look up the neowin article on how metro start screen was designed based on user feedback and data collection of how people use windows.

Ok, I give up talking to you. Between the direct contradictions and the entirely fabricated nonsense, talking to you about this is a waste of time.

Buh-bye...

[encarta]

Man how bad will it be when there are Metro malware? Talk about a disadvantage to live tiles there. It doesnt have to be malware, how about just annoying programs.

Ok, I'm not the biggest fan of Metro myself (although I'm getting used to it and it's actually pretty good), but what are you talking about? You can uninstall an app directly from the start screen. Right click on a tile, uninstall, done. If you don't want to remove it, just turn off the "live tile" function. Easy.

[HawkMan]

Ok, I give up talking to you. Between the direct contradictions and the entirely fabricated nonsense, talking to you about this is a waste of time.

Buh-bye...

How about trying some actual arguments instead of temper tantruming like a little kid. What contradictions and what fabricated nonsense. So far every one of you "arguments" amounts to "baha your wrong and I'm right, just because"

Sorry, but I've given arguments and facts, you have not.

[theyarecomingforyou]

I don't understand why everything has to be so polarised. I like Metro but I don't think it's the worst UI design, nor the best. It has many obvious advantages over the Start Menu, like dynamic content, large tiles, no need to scroll, no need to click to expand folders, it makes use of high resolution displays, it scales for high DPI/PPI displays, you can easily group apps, it's highly customisable, etc. It also has many disadvantages, like obstructing the taskbar, being slightly more awkward on multi-monitor displays, taking precedent over the desktop (obvious when side-pinning Metro apps), moving apps can making it more difficult to locate other apps, it's mandatory, etc. At the end of the day it really isn't important to every day usage on the desktop - you still use it for a fraction of the time, with the vast majority still spent on the desktop.

As I've said many times, I find the Metro Start screen to be very useful and advantageous with high resolution monitors (mine is 2560x1600, with a secondary 1920x1080 display). There are still some annoyances with regards to app switching and the hot-corners but it's entirely possible they'll be addressed before release - however, it's already in a decent state. The design obviously makes accommodations for touch interfaces; it also obviously makes accommodations for high resolution displays, for dynamic content, for customisation, etc. It is disingenuous to claim that it isn't designed for desktop usage or isn't designed for mouse and keyboard.

At the end of the day Metro is just one aspect of Windows 8. It is obviously a very visible difference but it really doesn't make much difference in everyday usage. I installed it on my parents laptop and they've coped with it just fine - in fact they stated that they really didn't see how it was particularly different and that it still opened all the apps they normally use. To me the entire situation reminds me of Vista - people complained endlessly about it when in actual fact it was a decent operating system. People complained about performance but many games and apps ran faster. Did it have its issues? Absolutely. But people complained about it because other people complained about it, often without any first hand experience. Obviously if you haven't used it for a few days / weeks you won't have time to adapt and you will find the changes quite jarring but you quickly get used to it. And with a tutorial most people will find it even quicker to get used to.

If you try it and don't like it then fine, at least you gave it a try. You don't have to use it. But make sure to give it a fair chance before writing it off. Microsoft is never going to appeal to everyone - as the number of people still using XP perfectly attests to - but it offers many worthwhile features and improvements over Windows 8. I will be pre-ordering it, just like I did with XP, Vista and Win7.

PS - I also preordered Windows ME, though I admit that was a mistake.

[Dot Matrix]

I can do work MUCH faster in Windows 7, so I will stick with it. I seriously doubt Apple or most Linux distributions will have launchpad/Metro ONLY interface in the future.

So, what you're saying is desktop computing won't evolve new methods of input? I think that's a bunch of bull.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

So, what you're saying is desktop computing won't evolve new methods of input? I think that's a bunch of bull.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/gestures.html

[BeerFan]

I'm sorry, but they've done a horrible job designing it for a desktop. Currently, it's about as nice as using an iPad with a mouse. You can do it, but it's inefficient and stupid.

I agree. It's clunky and inefficient on a desktop, in my opinion. The Start Screen is a huge mess compared to a compact and nicely organized Start Menu. It's been my main OS on this laptop since the release of the DP, and I use it every day. I know exactly how to get around, and I honestly think it is a step backwards. I'm not trolling either; I'm honestly disappointed. I love testing new builds of Windows. This is the first time I've ever felt negatively about a new OS.

[xWhiplash]

Ok, I'm not the biggest fan of Metro myself (although I'm getting used to it and it's actually pretty good), but what are you talking about? You can uninstall an app directly from the start screen. Right click on a tile, uninstall, done. If you don't want to remove it, just turn off the "live tile" function. Easy.

Chances are the general user will not go around doing that. You know all somebody needs to do is Right click on IE and hide those toolbars, yet I still need to work on computers that have a dozen toolbars ACTIVE. You also have the ability to uninstall toolbars, that doesnt mean EVERYBODY will do it. I will not go around uninstalling stuff on a client's computer just so I can move around Metro easier.

[BeerFan]

Chances are the general user will not go around doing that. You know all somebody needs to do is Right click on IE and hide those toolbars, yet I still need to work on computers that have a dozen toolbars ACTIVE. You also have the ability to uninstall toolbars, that doesnt mean EVERYBODY will do it. I will not go around uninstalling stuff on a client's computer just so I can move around Metro easier.

Absolutely true. The general home user is never going to change the Start Screen from its defaults.