win8 Windows 8 Start button isn't coming back, but there will be a tutorial

[rfirth]

Live tiles are overrated. I mean, who's gonna stare at the Start Page waiting for an update?

You have it completely backward. You don't stare at the State Screen. You use the OS normally as you would. However, as you go to App X [by opening the Start Screen], you notice that you have a new email or other notification on a live tile.

Which is better... live tiles - glance and go... or old start menu or non-live tiles... where you have to open apps all the time just to check to see if you got a new email or a new message on Facebook. The answer is obvious. You shouldn't have to open an app to know if there is new content for you.

[efjay]

Comedy! :D

[JaredFrost]

Which is better... live tiles - glance and go... or old start menu or non-live tiles... where you have to open apps all the time just to check to see if you got a new email or a new message on Facebook. The answer is obvious. You shouldn't have to open an app to know if there is new content for you.

I'm not going to do either of those, my systray tells me all that and I didn't have to open the start screen or the program. The answer is obvious, you shouldn't have to open the start screen to know if there is new content for you.

[George P Global Moderator]

I'm not going to do either of those, my systray tells me all that and I didn't have to open the start screen or the program. The answer is obvious, you shouldn't have to open the start screen to know if there is new content for you.

The systray is limited in what it can tell you through it's icons unless you're mistaking that with tooltips like what Windows Live does which are more like notification popups than anything else. Let's be honest, the visual information you can get through looking at those icons in the systray is very very limited and in most cases you'll have to interact with them in some fashion, through right-clicking on one of them or something.

The fact you try to compare those to live tiles is almost funny yet something tells me you're being serious about it.

[MorganX]

You have it completely backward. You don't stare at the State Screen. You use the OS normally as you would. However, as you go to App X [by opening the Start Screen], you notice that you have a new email or other notification on a live tile.

Which is better... live tiles - glance and go... or old start menu or non-live tiles... where you have to open apps all the time just to check to see if you got a new email or a new message on Facebook. The answer is obvious. You shouldn't have to open an app to know if there is new content for you.

These scenarios are IMO ridiculous. No one is going to glance and go for whether or not they have an email when they randomly happen to use the Start button when they're using their computer and have access to their email program without randomness and bits and bytes of glanceworthy info. That's the point. Walking down the street with a tablet or glancing at phone sitting in a meeting yes. Sitting at your desktop, it's just overrated and of little value.

Why look at a live tile for Facebook info when you can just open it. Since there's no multitasking, you're not doing anything but staring at a start page full of tiles if you're not in an app.

[MorganX]

The systray is limited in what it can tell you through it's icons unless you're mistaking that with tooltips like what Windows Live does which are more like notification popups than anything else. Let's be honest, the visual information you can get through looking at those icons in the systray is very very limited and in most cases you'll have to interact with them in some fashion, through right-clicking on one of them or something.

The fact you try to compare those to live tiles is almost funny yet something tells me you're being serious about it.

I'm sure he's talking about notifications as well as Taskbar Tiles (specifically pinned web pages like facebook). Mail gadgets etc. The issue isn't the mechanism but the situation. Any of the existing notification systems are valuable because they are made to provide that information while multitasking. Live Tiles, to see those your task is staring at the Start Menu. It's not to put them down or say they're not neat. They're what makes Windows Phone so great, but on a desktop, it's just of little value. Perhaps if the start page was the lock screen or screen saver, maybe.

[MorganX]

No, theyre not. A tablet is a tablet, tablets use a pen with a pressure sensitive magnet in it, that is detected by a system underneath. They're also called digitizers but not commonly anymore, especially since the old fashioned targeting reticle pucks went out of fashion with tablets.

Tablets that use a pen stylus, every single one that I have had, also can be used with touch. Furthermore, digitizers are not tablets and not a part of this discussion. Wacom thanks you.

>>No, theyre not. A tablet is a tablet,<<

This thread is done. Stick a fork in it.

[JaredFrost]

The systray is limited in what it can tell you through it's icons unless you're mistaking that with tooltips like what Windows Live does which are more like notification popups than anything else. Let's be honest, the visual information you can get through looking at those icons in the systray is very very limited and in most cases you'll have to interact with them in some fashion, through right-clicking on one of them or something.

The fact you try to compare those to live tiles is almost funny yet something tells me you're being serious about it.

For the examples you used, new email messages and new facebook messages it is perfectly fine to compare it to live tiles, do you really need to know who the new messages are from

in a live tile? you'll check it anyway, all you need to know is there IS new messages, sure weather data, stocks, etc isn't ideal for a systray item, but that's what gadgets are for right?

Unless you're saying you can check, read and reply to emails in a live tile.

Even with Metro though, I wont be using the start screen to see if I have new email, that would be a waste of time.

[George P Global Moderator]

I'm sure he's talkign about notifications as well as icon on the Taskbar Tiles (specifically pinned web pages like facebook). Mail gadgets etc. The issue isn't the mechanism but the situation. Any of the existing notification systems are valuable because they are made to provide that information while multitasking. Live Tiles, to see those your task is staring at the Start Menu. It's not to put them down or say they're not neat. They're what makes Windows Phone so great, but on a desktop, it's just of little value. Perhaps if the start page was the lock screen or screen saver, maybe.

You're jumbling everything together for no reason though. There is no reason why notifications for things can happen in both UIs regardless. And taskbar updates for pinned sites require I keep that site open, they don't update if my FB pinned site is closed for example, which I think is a shame and a waste to. I really don't get why you want to make this somehow complicated or make it sound limited when it's not. The point of the live tile system is to give you more info without requiring you to start the app or open the pinned site like you have to now. The idea behind it is simple, and the start screen being the first boot option plays into that thinking.

Once you look at it you know what has a update but you can also know what has a update that's worth starting the app for. Other things like desktop gadgets make you look away from whatever work you're doing to look at the desktop, to that extent they're no different than looking at the start screen and then going back to your app. Besides, if something important comes up the system will toss you a notification popup in the end on it's own.

[George P Global Moderator]

For the examples you used, new email messages and new facebook messages it is perfectly fine to compare it to live tiles, do you really need to know who the new messages are from

in a live tile? you'll check it anyway, all you need to know is there IS new messages, sure weather data, stocks, etc isn't ideal for a systray item, but that's what gadgets are for right?

Unless you're saying you can check, read and reply to emails in a live tile.

Even with Metro though, I wont be using the start screen to see if I have new email, that would be a waste of time.

Not every email message that comes in or FB update is worth replying to right there and with the systray you don't know if it's worth your time or not until you open the app and look. Besides, pinned sites, as I said, in Win7 require you to have that site open, and also, what sorta update do you even have for that site? Since you guys like to use FB and since it's one of my pinned sites as well, I can't tell what type of FB update I have just looking at the sites icon without actually opening up the window to find out some friend decided to give me a lame request in a game I don't want to play.

If all you care about is basic info as far as a yes or no and then you feel fine with jumping between open apps or opening and closing them over and over to get more details then ok, who am I to say otherwise. But my point is that even on the desktop, live tiles + a good notification system work better. I don't see why they'd only be fine for a tablet or phone.

[KevinN206]

These scenarios are IMO ridiculous. No one is going to glance and go for whether or not they have an email when they randomly happen to use the Start button when they're using their computer and have access to their email program without randomness and bits and bytes of glanceworthy info. That's the point. Walking down the street with a tablet or glancing at phone sitting in a meeting yes. Sitting at your desktop, it's just overrated and of little value.

Why look at a live tile for Facebook info when you can just open it. Since there's no multitasking, you're not doing anything but staring at a start page full of tiles if you're not in an app.

I think the point is that you shouldn't have to open multiple apps to see if there're new updates. Certainly you can open facebook for updates, but what if you want to know if there's a new appointment, a mail, a new message, a new twitter? If that's the case, then you have to open five different apps. The argument of course if live tiles is "better" than a unified notification system such as the one in OS X Mountain Lion.

[migo]

Actually on a phone or tablet, a live tile is what you want. Bits & Bytes of info you can get at a glance becuase you're doing other things.

On a desktop, you're sitting in front of it doing something. It makes no sense to sit at a desktop, staring at a Start Page catching glimpses of bits & bytes of info. If you're at the computer, you can get the info more efficiently by other means that are probably more accessible.

Live tile gadgets, that would be another story. Doesn't add much on a desktop that Status Tray Notifications, Gadgets, or icon badgets cant do.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, just overrated on the desktop.

You're thinking about it wrong. The live tiles are there with information to give you useful info at a glance, so if you sit down at your computer, your first look tells you what to do. After that the live tiles won't give you info, the notifications will.

[migo]

Tablets that use a pen stylus, every single one that I have had, also can be used with touch. Furthermore, digitizers are not tablets and not a part of this discussion. Wacom thanks you.

>>No, theyre not. A tablet is a tablet,<<

This thread is done. Stick a fork in it.

That's just the ones you have had. My tablet PC was pen only.

[HawkMan]

Tablets that use a pen stylus, every single one that I have had, also can be used with touch. Furthermore, digitizers are not tablets and not a part of this discussion. Wacom thanks you.

>>No, theyre not. A tablet is a tablet,<<

This thread is done. Stick a fork in it.

Are you referrign to tablets/Tablet PC''s or pads/slates. If you're talking about simple touch and resistive pen surface pads, then refer to them as pads or slates, they're not tablets. Tablets are more powerful, wit or without a keyboard(usually transforming if they have) and have an actual tablet in the screen, a Wacom if it's good quality. These are tablet or Tablet PC's and is a completely different product from pads or slates. Pads and Slates should not be referred to as tablets as they don't have a tablet. Tablet PC's already had that name for years before the ipad and is a completely different product for a completely different users.

And yes a tablet can, and new ones usually do, have a touch surface in addition to the tablet. these are not the same though and are two different input systems. And earlier models had only the pen, some newer models only have a pen as well.

As for Wacom and tablets. may I direct you to the following.

Intuos5 Professional Pen Tablet

Intuos5 delivers a revolutionary new pen tablet experience, combining our finest pen capabilities with an intuitive multi-touch surface and new productivity features. It?s the ideal choice for professionals and anyone with a serious creative passion in photography, art or design.

http://www.wacom.com/en/Products/Intuos.aspx

Yes, Wacom thanks you, please continue to refer to tablets as tablets, As that's what they are and have always been. Noone refers to them as digitizers, but digitizers are tablets and tablets are digitizers.

[Dot Matrix]

Well, there you have it folks, Windows 8 and Windows 8 Pro. Both will feature the Start Screen and Live Tiles. Badda bing, badda boom.

Rest in Peace, Start Menu. It's time to move onto bigger things!

[Jose_49]

What really scares me is that you can only have 9 side apps (with the black bar) running at the same time. Other than that they will close. :s Hope they fix this and allow more than 9 running....

[rfirth]

Well, there you have it folks, Windows 8 and Windows 8 Pro. Both will feature the Start Screen and Live Tiles. Badda bing, badda boom.

Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro, Windows RT, and Windows 8 Enterprise... at least

[JaredFrost]

Well, there you have it folks, Windows 8 and Windows 8 Pro. Both will feature the Start Screen and Live Tiles. Badda bing, badda boom.

Rest in Peace, Start Menu. It's time to move onto bigger things!

Truer words could not have been spoken, bigger yet not better.

[Rickkins]

Well, there you have it folks, Windows 8 and Windows 8 Pro. Both will feature the Start Screen and Live Tiles. Badda bing, badda boom.

Won't really matter much, except for the couple dozen fanboi's that buy win8. (and I only barely exaggerate...)

The only real question, is just how big a failure will be. Bigger than ME...Vista...???? Both combined...??

The latter would be my guess.

On the other hand, I did watch your video, and it does look good. It's not the metro nonsense that I object to, it's the forcing onto desktop users that insults me. And no, the comparison to the change between 3.1 and 95 is not valid. Sorry, no sale. One cannot compare desktop computing circa 3.1, 1994, and the mature desktop environment represented by windows 7, 2012. People comfortable with the type of environment represented by the win7 desktop, and remember that "we're" the ones what brought you, to coin a phrase, ought to be shown more respect, and not have this unwanted basterd child shoved down their throats.

It's really not rocket science.

[Jose_49]

Nah. I don't think Win8 will be a failure. Even in desktop environments. Casual users have loved the OS so far. My friends find it very intuitive and easier to travel. Furthermore "that cool effect of showing all those big icons". A few of them have complaint about the charms bar though.... They find it ugly and out of context.

[Dot Matrix]

Nah. I don't think Win8 will be a failure. Even in desktop environments. Casual users have loved the OS so far.

I can't get enough of it on the desktop. Rough around the edges yet, but the implications of what it will become are there.

[Rickkins]

Casual users have loved the OS so far.

On what planet..??

[xWhiplash]

On what planet..??

Maybe for people that just use internet explorer.

Why is everybody that loves metro so afraid of CHOICE? We get it, you like Metro. But for those of us that do not, we should at least have a choice to not use that ugly start screen on the desktop.

How many metro apps will be available BEFORE Windows 9?

Adobe CS 7 as Metro? I doubt it

Video games? I doubt it (I am talking about high quality games here $60 from the store. why target only one OS when you can target 3-4?)

And you know what, whenever I do just want to browse the internet or watch some tv shows, then I would be fine with Metro. Even then I find it to be completely useless on my 27" monitor.

But come on you need to give users a choice at least. Everybody wins, I do not see the disadvantage other than metro lovers are so afraid that with a choice metro will fail.If that is the case, doesn't that already say something?

Say whatever you want, but I am a metro lover myself. It looks nice on the phones, I love the way the XBox works, and I am sure it will be very nice on tablets. However, it is NOT very useful for professionals and heavy multi-taskers like myself. They should have removed it in the pro version.

And please, enough talk about how the desktop environment HAS to change. Um no it doesnt. If metro was not included in the Desktop OS, would people here really start saying "Well the desktop is dead because there is STILL A TASKBAR OMG!!!!" You might WANT it to change, you might think it will be better if it changes, but in no way does the desktop OS UI HAVE to change or else the world will end.

[winlonghorn]

It already exists, it's called "Windows 7"

You are missing the point! The key phrase was, "You design it!" (meaning plan, code, and support it all by yourself) and then see how simple it really is.

[Dot Matrix]

Why is everybody that loves metro so afraid of CHOICE? We get it, you like Metro. But for those of us that do not, we should at least have a choice to not use that ugly start screen on the desktop.

Because the 9x doesn't represent what Microsoft wants to do anymore. It's literally dead to them, so why continue to have the excess baggage? Anyone who has used Windows excessively since the release of Vista have known for a while now, that the Start Menu was going away. Once Windows 7 was released, the Start Menu was dead. I personally don't do anything with it anymore other than to restart my machine. You have choice for years now to use it or not use it, and never realized it, but now it's time for the Start Menu to evolve so it can become useful again - AKA The Start Screen. With live tiles, and the like, it literally is the place to Start. If you want onto the desktop, simply click the desktop tile. Takes 1.2323462 seconds.

But, if the Start Menu was still here in Windows 8, how many "computer pros" out there would switch it off out of bias, and never give other users the chance to make their own decisions? Even Warwagon himself said he'd switch it off without bothering to show it to others and let them come to their own conclusions.

There comes a time, where people just need a push into something new. The concept behind Windows 8 will be a game changer.

How many metro apps will be available BEFORE Windows 9?

Adobe CS 7 as Metro? I doubt it

Video games? I doubt it (I am talking about high quality games here $60 from the store. why target only one OS when you can target 3-4?)

Maybe not Photoshop, but look at apps like Instagram that many are using. Add a couple lines of code, and it can instantly become a simple, viable alternative to Photoshop which many people outside of the industry NEVER use. Afterall, how many people *really* use it other than to crop pictures, edit brightness, and add photographic filter effects? People seem to wanna use Photoshop as a metric that old, 90's era code is still valid. While that may be the case in certain industries, for normal people (like me), Photoshop is an overly complicated and expensive hog that is completely wasted.

I expect overly complicated apps like Visual Studio to eventually follow this path. An app that's pretty much automated to develop code, just add a few controls, select a few options, and you're done. The app does all the coding itself in the background.

They should have removed it in the pro version.

Again, Metro is a long time coming.