Just how many people hate Windows 8?

[Noir Angel]

On another note, what do you think about Surface RT being landscape oriented from a consumer point of view? It does not rotate well or universally. I mean, it does but not as elegantly as iOS or Android. Just curious what your thoughts on that are if you have used one.

Haven't used one, but it sounds like a simple case of it being one more poor design decision to me.

MorganX, do you remember the expression "The winners write the histories after the battles are over."? A monopoly is defined (legally) as a company that has such an advantage in marketshare that it is not merely difficult, but approaching nigh impossible to compete with it; name a SINGLE market that Microsoft has ever had such a position in, at any time in their existence. If you are referring to the EU decisions, Microsoft was at a disadvantage in EU courts from the get-go, being based outside the EU; further it was at least one company based within the EU (Opera Software) doing the complaining. As far as the United States went, the prevailing winds within the LEGAL community at the time were that large (by definition) equals bad and Microsoft (at the time) was not exactly small. Further, you had Apple (which was actually far more dominant in their lines of business than Microsoft) successfully playing to the Court of Public Opinion that it was a little and helpless company (the "David" card - look small and cute). Was there any way that Microsoft could win the argument?

In short, MorganX, I'm saying that the deck was stacked.

One rather large crimp in your theory: US courts have also punished Microsoft for similar behaviour.

[MorganX]

In short, MorganX, I'm saying that the deck was stacked.

The other issue I take with your theory is why is it ONLY held to apply to corporate misconduct, as opposed to other, far more damaging, PERSONAL misconduct, such as murder or even voluntary manslaughter? What ever happened to the idea of "one rule for all"?

I understand your position. We'll just have to disagree. I do feel Microsoft behaved in a predatory and anti-competitive manner in those days which resulted in them being what they are today and totally dominating the enterprise. That's not to say I don't like their products, but no one really had a fighting chance and they definitely leveraged their desktop monopoly and APIs to give themselves and unfair advantage in sub-markets. I actually think they got off easy. They were not forced to dissolve their divisions into separate entities and are still able to leverage their desktop monopoly to their competitive advantage for the most part. Microsoft was absolutely ruthless. But equally responsible for their success was how stupid and gullible the suits at IBM were. Apple certainly took advantage of the situation but they were not alone. You had Oracle, WordPerfect, several smaller companies I don't even remember, Netscape, lots.

With regards to personal misconduct, that's heading more into the socio-political which I do not believe is the same as laws insuring a competitive marketplace and protecting citizens and the economy from predatory monopolistic practices.

If these laws did not exist, there would be a concerted effort by the society to prevent a company from again becoming a monopoly. We would intentionally maintain heterogeneous environments even if we accepted products of a lower quality or usability. These laws were not created because of Microsoft, they just violated them. The ruthless Railroads and their control of society and business primarily led to these laws in the US. America will allow great individual success, but they will not allow dictators and kings, or predatory monopolies.

Edit: This whole discussion brings back memories of still my favorite Windows Word Processor in school, Ami Pro. I'm getting old.

[Dashel]

Of course it's an anti-competitive move. You think Microsoft wants a browser war on it's tablet platform? One it may not win? But, and this is all that matters, Microsoft does not dominate the tablet market, nor does it have a monopoly, so it is not anti-competitive. That's just how it is.

On another note, what do you think about Surface RT being landscape oriented from a consumer point of view? It does not rotate well or universally. I mean, it does but not as elegantly as iOS or Android. Just curious what your thoughts on that are if you have used one.

If anything, why hasn't Apple or Google been put to the same rigor? I'm much rather make Apple open up than Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot.

Per the second, I actually lock mine generally and only use the long view for specific instances. I think the decision to go widescreen over 4:3 was the right one. It just feels and integrates with edge swipes in a much more natural way. While I agree the rotation implementation itself still needs a little tweaking (same issue with WP) to get it iOS smooth, its not android bad.

[MorganX]

If you are referring to the EU decisions, Microsoft was at a disadvantage in EU courts from the get-go, being based outside the EU; further it was at least one company based within the EU (Opera Software) doing the complaining.

Actually, I don't know much about the EU situation, just providing an example of using a market segment which you have a monopoly (OS) for an unfair advantage in others (distributing web browsers and/or media players for unfair advantage.)

Here's a really short article describing the principles in general: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~eroberts/cs201/projects/corporate-monopolies/development_rrmon.html

[MorganX]

If anything, why hasn't Apple or Google been put to the same rigor? I'm much rather make Apple open up than Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot.

Apple is seen as a part of the PC market which Microsoft dominates the OS, as for PC hardware, collectively, Apple is nowhere near a dominant PC maker. There's plenty of competition.

Google, I'm not sure.

[MorganX]

FWIW Monopolies are not illegal. Using that power in an anti-competitive manner can be.

[Growled Member]

If anything, why hasn't Apple or Google been put to the same rigor? I'm much rather make Apple open up than Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot.

The thing is Android is the best thing that has ever happened to Apple because iOS is not a monopoly anymore.

[JonnyLH]

Strange because hardware acceleration has always been fine for me in Chrome

No, what I'm saying is that other browsers are being denied access to the 2D/3D rendering framework that modern web browsers need to provide proper hardware acceleration. I'm talking about the 2D and 3D rendering APIs in Direct X that are used to accelerate most browser rendering, perhaps you ought to improve your reading comprehension before attacking me?

Like said, you still don't have a clue what you're going on about.

http://msdn.microsof...7(v=vs.85).aspx

Have fun.

Its totally up to the developer how they want to incorporate hardware acceleration, its strictly the Win32 api's which are restricted. If you looked into Metro app design, you'd see its one of the most refreshing and easiest pieces of technologies to develop for. The concept and metro design just needs unifying more across the OS.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Touch on the desktop is an untapped market, it would be foolish to ignore it.

There's a reason why it is untapped, they've been trying to integrate touchscreens into PCs since the 80's, there is a reason it hasn't caught on.

[Brony]

There's a reason why it is untapped, they've been trying to integrate touchscreens into PCs since the 80's, there is a reason it hasn't caught on.

Indeed and it failed for the same reason than, right now, touchscreen in PC is failing.

[Dot Matrix]

There's a reason why it is untapped, they've been trying to integrate touchscreens into PCs since the 80's, there is a reason it hasn't caught on.

No they haven't.

I don't recall a Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, or 2000 Tablet Editions. Nor do I remember being bombarded with ads trying to sell me touch screen CRTs.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Where are you bombarded with ads trying to sell you a touchscreen desktop???

[francescob]

Where are you bombarded with ads trying to sell you a touchscreen desktop???

Everywhere, even here, right now.

BUY WINDOWS 8!BUY WINDOWS 8!BUY WINDOWS 8!BUY WINDOWS 8!BUY WINDOWS 8!BUY WINDOWS 8!BUY WINDOWS 8!BUY WINDOWS 8 NOW ANDGETAFREECLOTHTOCLEANUPFINGERPRINTS*

* Except in Nebraska

See?

[moloko]

It's still a change and your resistance to it, even you admitted it, you didn't allow yourself to like it

The corners take to long to pop up. It takes longer to open a program from the start menu/ metro. There are a few things that I like about it ALOT. But it is more Win7.2 than a new OS. and the metro UI is horrible. On a touch screen it makes sense but on my work laptop or home laptop, not so much.

WHY is it so hard to add icons to the desktop.!!!right click a menu item in metro and only commands to put it on task bar. My customers like **** on the desktop.

[MorganX]

If anything, why hasn't Apple or Google been put to the same rigor? I'm much rather make Apple open up than Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot.

Per the second, I actually lock mine generally and only use the long view for specific instances. I think the decision to go widescreen over 4:3 was the right one. It just feels and integrates with edge swipes in a much more natural way. While I agree the rotation implementation itself still needs a little tweaking (same issue with WP) to get it iOS smooth, its not android bad.

@PGHammer as well, How timely, https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft--others-complain-to-eu-about-android-bundling-practices

hahaha, billionaire games.

[Dot Matrix]

Where are you bombarded with ads trying to sell you a touchscreen desktop???

The point being, touch screens were large and cumbersome, not to mention a dime a dozen back then, even during XP's day. The push for touch technology didn't come until after the iPhone took off.

[MorganX]

Indeed and it failed for the same reason than, right now, touchscreen in PC is failing.

I wouldn't say it's "failing," it is meeting its demand. That just happens to be rather small at the moment. Most people who need an AIO touchscreen for basic use, most likely can't afford it in this economy, not for such limited use. The mainstream demand for touch is where it is most appropriate, on tablets and smartphones.

[TheLegendOfMart]

The point being, touch screens were large and cumbersome, not to mention a dime a dozen back then, even during XP's day. The push for touch technology didn't come until after the iPhone took off.

What and a 24" LCD isn't big and cumbersome?

[+LogicalApex MVC]

My finger is faster at "clicking", than dragging around a cursor. Oh, and yes, the Wacom Tablet does count, because it's easier *and more accurate* than a mouse.

Mice can only be so accurate depending on the surface they're on.

This is heavily dependent on the way you hold your mouse. I'm a "finger tip" grip mouse user. As a result, my mouse in Windows and in games is set to the max sensitivity possible. I can move my mouse from the furthest point on my left most screen to the furthest point on my right most screen in a triple head 1920 wide setup in the span of less than 2" in real surface area. I couldn't do that as fast, or as easily, with my finger.

Now if you are a person who puts your whole hand on your mouse and moves the thing all over your desk to get it anywhere...

[Detection]

This is heavily dependent on the way you hold your mouse. I'm a "finger tip" grip mouse user. As a result, my mouse in Windows and in games is set to the max sensitivity possible. I can move my mouse from the furthest point on my left most screen to the furthest point on my right most screen in a triple head 1920 wide setup in the span of less than 2" in real surface area. I couldn't do that as fast, or as easily, with my finger.

Now if you are a person who puts your whole hand on your mouse and moves the thing all over your desk to get it anywhere...

Or...

[HawkMan]

The start screen makes as much sense on a desktop as a touch, and much of it works better on a desktop with a keyboard and mouse than on a touch. like anythign that requires right clicking or click and drag.

[HawkMan]

The corners take to long to pop up. It takes longer to open a program from the start menu/ metro. There are a few things that I like about it ALOT. But it is more Win7.2 than a new OS. and the metro UI is horrible. On a touch screen it makes sense but on my work laptop or home laptop, not so much. WHY is it so hard to add icons to the desktop.!!!right click a menu item in metro and only commands to put it on task bar. My customers like **** on the desktop.

And because MS is trying to teach people not to add **** to the desktop. firstly when you have 100+ icons on the desktop, you can't find them. secondly you have to close everything to get to the desktop making it the least accessible place to put stuff. and it's not a launcher.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Of course it's an anti-competitive move. You think Microsoft wants a browser war on it's tablet platform? One it may not win? But, and this is all that matters, Microsoft does not dominate the tablet market, nor does it have a monopoly, so it is not anti-competitive. That's just how it is.

True, but the risk Microsoft has is that they can be punished for using their Windows monopoly in the tablet market. In reality, since the Surface is a lot like a Nexus device Microsoft should have played it safe by allowing users a way to turn off secure boot (as I can on my Nexus 4) and load custom firmware. They could then ship it with it enabled, as Google does, and side step many of the concerns (and it may offer a reprieve if they get challenged).

Remember, when MS got slapped for bundling IE with Windows (that lead to them being legally declared a monopoly) that market too was emerging (there were only two major browsers at that time). The restrictions for that episode have recently worn off, but Microsoft should still tread carefully. If anything, I'm not sure why they are going so far down the computer as an appliance rail line. I feel they should be doing the Android route really and allowing as much customization as possible. It would really help save them in a monopoly challenge.

The start screen makes as much sense on a desktop as a touch, and much of it works better on a desktop with a keyboard and mouse than on a touch. like anythign that requires right clicking or click and drag.

Right clicking is better on the Start Screen? Or did I misunderstand what you typed here?

[HawkMan]

Right clicking is better on the Start Screen? Or did I misunderstand what you typed here?

Right clicking on the start screen works a lot better than click and hold on touch. same with click and drag functions. The start screen isn't designed purely for touch, then the functions that require touch and hold would use another better method.

the right click function itself is more ... mmmm... powerful, in the classic start menu, that doesn't make it better, not when it's something hardly anyone used. and as a launcher the start screen is much better than the start menu

[fusi0n]

Or...

Or..

Something more current.. most of all computers now come with a laser mouse. Also, a mouse is very easy to replace.