San Bernadino CA: 3 active shooters

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

1 minute ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

This is yet another example of out of control policing in the US. How long until the police are assassinating people with drone strikes? I ask that as a serious question, because it can't be long. People should be appalled at this sort of policing, not proud of it.

This is policy established from the North Hollywood shootout in 97, where the suspects were covered in body armor and caused havoc. After that, police were given wider access to larger weapons and are much quicker to use them to prevent such a standoff. Then 9/11 happened and everyone lost their ######.

 

It is a cycle of escalation.

[Emn1ty]

16 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

Actually, there is no way of knowing it's terrorism until the motive is established. Terrorism is the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims - if they're simply killing people for the sake of it then that's not terrorism.

 

As for those claiming this is 'excellent police work', what a disgusting sentiment. It is not the job of police to execute suspects, even those guilty of heinous crimes - it is their job to apprehend them. In the UK you never see police firing indiscriminately at suspects and vehicles; they always use controlled, targeted fire with the intent of the non-lethal outcome. In the US people are killed without a second thought, which is unacceptable. The vehicle pictured looks like something out of a Rambo movie, not the police controlling the situation.

 

This is yet another example of out of control policing in the US. How long until the police are assassinating people with drone strikes? I ask that as a serious question, because it can't be long. People should be appalled at this sort of policing, not proud of it.

Wow. Just... wow.

[theyarecomingforyou]

5 minutes ago, macrosslover said:

The job of the police is to protect and serve.  Apprehension is secondary to that, which means that if they have to kill to ensure they protect and serve the citizens then that's what they do, that's what they are enpowered to do.

 

I haven't seen a similar case like this in the UK to compare to, so if you all ever get your numbers up then we can do a comparison.  However, it's funny how you could twist this situation into an attack on the police, when they acted quickly to stop any further people from being harmed.

There aren't similar cases in the UK because it's hard to get hold of firearms and body armour and police are trained to take down suspects in a non-lethal manner. In the US police are so fearful for their lives, and trained so poorly, that they execute suspects at the drop of a hat. As Obama pointed out, there are no comparable events in other developed nations - the US is alone in this sort of insanity. Yet his calls for restrictions on firearms will be ignored and the right-wing will call for even more weapons.

[trag3dy]

Playing the stereotypical race card, if it's mexicans in southern california it's more likely gang related than terror related. 

 

At least, not the kind of terror incident we've been used to hearing about lately. 

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

I'd put my fiver on employees.

 

When things like this happen, I'm continually baffled by how little less-than-lethal weapons for LEOs has progressed. I recall being ###### about this back in the 90s. Granted, they have tasers now, but given the string of police shootings lately (Martin et al), not much progress has been made - much less anything more advanced than rubber bullets, and only military progress on the active denial systems we were promised 20 years ago. Research money needs to go here.

[Boo Berry]

"A senior federal official who is monitoring the case said investigators believe one of the shooters left the party after getting into an argument and returned with one or two armed companions."

[Emn1ty]

1 minute ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

There aren't similar cases in the UK because it's hard to get hold of firearms and body armour and police are trained to take down suspects in a non-lethal manner. In the US police are so fearful for their lives, and trained so poorly, that they execute suspects at the drop of a hat. As Obama pointed out, there are no comparable events in other developed nations - the US is alone in this sort of insanity. Yet his calls for restrictions on firearms will be ignored and the right-wing will call for even more weapons.

So in the scenario where three men are firing in a public area, and the chance of people getting hit by stray bullets is high. Or the chance of a police officer getting shot are high, you'd still argue that cops shooting back is bad? What's more important, saving the guy putting bullets into our law enforcement officers and citizens or ending the threat? Are you the kind of person who would be perfectly fine with a cop or two dying to preserve the life of this kind of criminal?

[TheLaughingMan]

23 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

7 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

There aren't similar cases in the UK because it's hard to get hold of firearms and body armour and police are trained to take down suspects in a non-lethal manner. In the US police are so fearful for their lives, and trained so poorly, that they execute suspects at the drop of a hat. As Obama pointed out, there are no comparable events in other developed nations - the US is alone in this sort of insanity. Yet his calls for restrictions on firearms will be ignored and the right-wing will call for even more weapons.

Actually, there is no way of knowing it's terrorism until the motive is established. Terrorism is the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims - if they're simply killing people for the sake of it then that's not terrorism.

 

As for those claiming this is 'excellent police work', what a disgusting sentiment. It is not the job of police to execute suspects, even those guilty of heinous crimes - it is their job to apprehend them. In the UK you never see police firing indiscriminately at suspects and vehicles; they always use controlled, targeted fire with the intent of the non-lethal outcome. In the US people are killed without a second thought, which is unacceptable. The vehicle pictured looks like something out of a Rambo movie, not the police controlling the situation.

 

This is yet another example of out of control policing in the US. How long until the police are assassinating people with drone strikes? I ask that as a serious question, because it can't be long. People should be appalled at this sort of policing, not proud of it.

come on man, don't cause problem in here. Everyone is talking about the incident and here you are trying to start a fight over America and UK laws/training. Are you guys still mad about the Boston Tea party?

[Boo Berry]

There is SPECULATION by the ABC7 chopper pilot that one of the dead suspects may be a female. This is unconfirmed, but he says he saw the suspect wearing a red bra.

 

Suspect being identified right now as a black male, possible knife or machete.

 

Suspicious person near airport, no further info right this second.

[theyarecomingforyou]

4 minutes ago, Boo Berry said:

"A senior federal official who is monitoring the case said investigators believe one of the shooters left the party after getting into an argument and returned with one or two armed companions."

So not terrorism then.

 

2 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

So in the scenario where three men are firing in a public area, and the chance of people getting hit by stray bullets is high. Or the chance of a police officer getting shot are high, you'd still argue that cops shooting back is bad? What's more important, saving the guy putting bullets into our law enforcement officers and citizens or ending the threat? Are you the kind of person who would be perfectly fine with a cop or two dying to preserve the life of this kind of criminal?

The issue is that criminals have access to extremely powerful and dangerous weaponry, which means the police respond with deadly force to minimise risk to themselves. It's understandable but it's insane to anyone outside of the US, where this sort of policing is unheard of. One of the issues is that policing in the US is extremely confrontation - we've seen countless incidents where the police create a situation through confrontation where one would not otherwise occur. I'm not saying that's the case here, but police tactics in the US are appalling.

 

2 minutes ago, TheLaughingMan said:

come on man, don't cause problem in here. Everyone is talking about the incident and here you are trying to start a fight over America and UK laws/training. Are you guys still mad about the Boston Tea party?

This isn't about the UK, that was just an example. You don't see this sort of policing in any other country - Germany, Japan, Australia, etc. I won't apologise for pointing out how ridiculous policing is in the US.

[Boo Berry]

"This press conference is about to begin -- should be any minute now. Police are expected to give some significant updates".

 

"Person struck by vehicle at Waterman and Caroline. EMTs being requested."

[techbeck]

31 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

 

As for those claiming this is 'excellent police work', what a disgusting sentiment. It is not the job of police to execute suspects, even those guilty of heinous crimes - it is their job to apprehend them. In the UK you never see police firing indiscriminately at suspects and vehicles; they always use controlled, targeted fire with the intent of the non-lethal outcome. In the US people are killed without a second thought, which is unacceptable. The vehicle pictured looks like something out of a Rambo movie, not the police controlling the situation.

 

This is yet another example of out of control policing in the US. How long until the police are assassinating people with drone strikes? I ask that as a serious question, because it can't be long. People should be appalled at this sort of policing, not proud of it.

These guys had no regard for the 14 lives they took and they should not be given any consideration for their lives.  They are armed, proved they were dangerous.  And besides, you were not there and did not know if they were given a chance to surrender or told to drop their weapons....but if it were my guess, they refused, or would have refused, all orders to do so. 

 

People like this are let off to softly.  They know they can do ###### like this and in return, be treated much more humanely (in most cases).  There needs to be a lot bigger consequences for people's actions.

[Dot Matrix]

3 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

So not terrorism then.

Maybe, maybe not. Officially, domestic terrorism is defined as:

• Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
• Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
• Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

- https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition

[Boo Berry]

"Possible IED has just been found."

[Boo Berry]

"Police are executing a high-risk search warrant in Redlands, CA that is tied to the incident today."

[Dot Matrix]

The hospital treating wounded received a (non credible) bomb threat. What kind of idiot thinks that's even remotely funny?

[Boo Berry]

1 minute ago, Dot Matrix said:

The hospital treating wounded received a (non credible) bomb threat. What kind of idiot thinks that's even remotely funny?

Yeah, hopefully that asshat gets caught for doing that.

[ctebah]

40 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

There aren't similar cases in the UK because it's hard to get hold of firearms and body armour and police are trained to take down suspects in a non-lethal manner. In the US police are so fearful for their lives, and trained so poorly, that they execute suspects at the drop of a hat. As Obama pointed out, there are no comparable events in other developed nations - the US is alone in this sort of insanity. Yet his calls for restrictions on firearms will be ignored and the right-wing will call for even more weapons.

Agreed.  Not even when their own president is pointing out the obvious are people wanting a change.

[macrosslover]

40 minutes ago, Zagadka said:

I'd put my fiver on employees.

 

When things like this happen, I'm continually baffled by how little less-than-lethal weapons for LEOs has progressed. I recall being ###### about this back in the 90s. Granted, they have tasers now, but given the string of police shootings lately (Martin et al), not much progress has been made - much less anything more advanced than rubber bullets, and only military progress on the active denial systems we were promised 20 years ago. Research money needs to go here.

until they develop the Star Trek phaser with a stun setting, less than lethal will never be an option in this type of situation.  The current state of less than lethal weapons can't guarantee 100% incapacity, which is needed in a situation like this and pretty much every life or death situation.  Until they develop to the point where a simple "stun" can incapacitate any human being, bullets will remain the only guaranteed way of stopping a threat.

[theyarecomingforyou]

21 minutes ago, Dot Matrix said:

Maybe, maybe not. Officially, domestic terrorism is defined as:

• Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
• Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
• Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

- https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition

Terrorism is defined as 'the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims'. If the statement I quoted earlier is true, and that remains to be seen, then it's not terrorism.

 

24 minutes ago, techbeck said:

These guys had no regard for the 14 lives they took and they should not be given any consideration for their lives.  They are armed, proved they were dangerous.  And besides, you were not there and did not know if they were given a chance to surrender or told to drop their weapons....but if it were my guess, they refused, or would have refused, all orders to do so. 

 

People like this are let off to softly.  They know they can do ###### like this and in return, be treated much more humanely (in most cases).  There needs to be a lot bigger consequences for people's actions.

How are people like this 'let off too softly'? Most of the time they're shot on sight, which is exactly what they want. Having to face justice, to spend the rest of their life in prison is a more meaningful punishment. All I would say is that if the vehicle was surrounded then there is absolutely no justification in shooting it to pieces like some Hollywood action movie. There can be no justice for people as malevolent as these - no punishment will ever bring back the people killed. But police could at least let the justice system do it's job, to apprehend the suspects and hold them to account.

 

The problem with policing in the US is that it's extremely cowardly. Suspects are shot because police don't want to put themselves in danger. It's gotten to the point where suspects are openly gunned down in broad daylight and charges are rarely ever filed. It's become mundane. That's a shocking state of affairs. People should be shocked by this sort of policing, not praising it.

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

4 minutes ago, macrosslover said:

until they develop the Star Trek phaser with a stun setting, less than lethal will never be an option in this type of situation.  The current state of less than lethal weapons can't guarantee 100% incapacity, which is needed in a situation like this and pretty much every life or death situation.  Until they develop to the point where a simple "stun" can incapacitate any human being, bullets will remain the only guaranteed way of stopping a threat.

Well, this is an extreme case - but if there is progress in developing a light or sound or motion based denial system, body armor can be ignored.

 

Quote

The current state of less than lethal weapons can't guarantee 100% incapacity

 

Neither can bullets, and they have a smaller chance to kill random people. And which is why I said that more money has to be put into developing these systems.

[Dot Matrix]

Per AP: 1 male, 1 female suspect dead after mass shooting in Southern California.

[ctebah]

2 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

The problem with policing in the US is that it's extremely cowardly. Suspects are shot because police don't want to put themselves in danger. It's gotten to the point where suspects are openly gunned down in broad daylight and charges are rarely ever filed. It's become mundane. That's a shocking state of affairs. People should be shocked by this sort of policing, not praising it.

Almost every week there's a news story or a video of a cop gunning down someone.  The state of policing in the US is ridiculous when you compare it to the rest of the developed countries.  Instead of people being so afraid of terrorism they should be afraid of their own police apparently.    

[DeusProto]

3 minutes ago, ctebah said:

Almost every week there's a news story or a video of a cop gunning down someone.  The state of policing in the US is ridiculous when you compare it to the rest of the developed countries.  Instead of people being so afraid of terrorism they should be afraid of their own police apparently.    

And if you have a dog, hope that you never get swatted or even the SWAT team busts down your door  erroneously based on bad information. Bye bye dog whenever that happens. With no apologies or recompense afterward. And you're left to clean up the damage and pay for repairs. 

[Boo Berry]

3 minutes ago, Dot Matrix said:

Per AP: 1 male, 1 female suspect dead after mass shooting in Southern California.

And a potential third suspect in custody.