San Bernadino CA: 3 active shooters

[theyarecomingforyou]

Just now, ctebah said:

Almost every week there's a news story or a video of a cop gunning down someone.  The state of policing in the US is ridiculous when you compare it to the rest of the developed countries.  Instead of people being so afraid of terrorism they should be afraid of their own police apparently.    

Exactly. The police in America are way more dangerous than any terrorists or mass shooters. Gunning down suspects has become routine. In no other country do you see suspects routinely mowed down and it's only recently, with the introduction of body cams and mobile phone cameras, that police are being charged with murder. Unfortunately there are countless incidents where there is no footage and officers get away with murder.

 

I believe it's only a matter of time until drone strikes are used to take out suspects in the US.  They've already been used by the US government to kill American citizens abroad.

[Emn1ty]

33 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

The issue is that criminals have access to extremely powerful and dangerous weaponry, which means the police respond with deadly force to minimise risk to themselves. It's understandable but it's insane to anyone outside of the US, where this sort of policing is unheard of. One of the issues is that policing in the US is extremely confrontation - we've seen countless incidents where the police create a situation through confrontation where one would not otherwise occur. I'm not saying that's the case here, but police tactics in the US are appalling.

Define "extremely powerful and dangerous". Cause I get the feeling you don't understand how weapons that are available in the US work. First of all, every legally obtainable weapon (by normal means) is semi-automatic. So even if they have an M4, AK-47, or an Uzi these weapons are semi-auto. If you're talking caliber, then anything from a pistol to a rifle can have large to small caliber. So what do you define as "extremely powerful and dangerous" ? Large caliber, the fact it looks like a weapon of war? Cause none of these factors actually matter. In fact, a majority of homicide doesn't occur with what is defined as "assault" weapons, but pistols in the United States.

This whole idea of "assault" weapons is just BS, because no matter what it looks like or if it has a fully automatic variation (that's not sold in the US for the most part) it's still classified as "assault" as if it somehow magically makes it more dangerous than any other weapon (ie. a hunting rifle).

[Dot Matrix]

1 minute ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

Exactly. The police in America are way more dangerous than any terrorists or mass shooters. Gunning down suspects has become routine. In no other country do you see suspects routinely mowed down and it's only recently, with the introduction of body cams and mobile phone cameras, that police are being charged with murder. Unfortunately there are countless incidents where there is no footage and officers get away with murder.

 

I believe it's only a matter of time until drone strikes are used to take out suspects in the US.  They've already been used by the US government to kill American citizens abroad.

First of all, no. Second of all, no. Third of all... no.

[ctebah]

4 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

Exactly. The police in America are way more dangerous than any terrorists or mass shooters. Gunning down suspects has become routine. In no other country do you see suspects routinely mowed down and it's only recently, with the introduction of body cams and mobile phone cameras, that police are being charged with murder. Unfortunately there are countless incidents where there is no footage and officers get away with murder.

 

I believe it's only a matter of time until drone strikes are used to take out suspects in the US.  They've already been used by the US government to kill American citizens abroad.

Cops are finally being held accountable for their mistakes now that almost everyone has a cell phone.  And I can see them using drones within the next couple of  years.

[macrosslover]

1 minute ago, ctebah said:

Cops are finally being held accountable for their mistakes now that almost everyone has a cell phone.  And I can see them using drones within the next couple of  years.

Yeah they will. They will use them to catch people and probably do investigative surveillance.  As to the tin foil fears of them doing drone strikes, well they've used helicopters for decades and I don't see any missiles or machine guns on them, so I wouldn't put money on them having armed drones if I were you.

[techbeck]

Funny people feeling sorry for 3 people and thinking they were treated unfairly and mowed down.  Again, no one here was there in person and knew if they were given the chance to surrender or not.  My guess, they were.  And if they did or opened fire first, boo fricken who.  Few less ###### in the world to worry about.  They lost their rights and any chance of being treated fairly here.

 

And there are far more good police officers out there than bad.  With more officers being recorded, more and more are being held accountable.  But let the media spoon feed  you the bad while ignoring all the good.  And that is the problem with a lot of stuff these days.  People only want to see/hear the bad and when something bad is being reported towards a certain group of people, they the whole group is stereotyped. 

[theyarecomingforyou]

1 minute ago, Emn1ty said:

Define "extremely powerful and dangerous". Cause I get the feeling you don't understand how weapons that are available in the US work. First of all, every legally obtainable weapon (by normal means) is semi-automatic. So even if they have an M4, AK-47, or an Uzi these weapons are semi-auto. If you're talking caliber, then anything from a pistol to a rifle can have large to small caliber. So what do you define as "extremely powerful and dangerous" ? Large caliber, the fact it looks like a weapon of war? Cause none of these factors actually matter. In fact, a majority of homicide doesn't occur with what is defined as "assault" weapons, but pistols in the United States.

This whole idea of "assault" weapons is just BS, because no matter what it looks like or if it has a fully automatic variation (that's not sold in the US for the most part) it's still classified as "assault" as if it somehow magically makes it more dangerous than any other weapon (ie. a hunting rifle).

I define 'extremely powerful and dangerous' as any weapons capable of killing large amounts of people in a short amount of time - that includes handguns. Already this year there have been 355 mass shootings, meaning there is more than one a day. A starting point would be to limit the capacity of weapons, as is done in the UK. My family owns several automatic shotguns—yup, firearms aren't banned here despite what you might have heard—but they are limited to three shells at a time. A mass shooting would require a lot of reloading, which would give people time to charge the attacker or escape. Instead you see drums capable of holding hundreds of bullets in the US - there is no legitimate use for such things.

[DocM]

15 minutes ago, Boo Berry said:

And a potential third suspect in custody.

Then at least one can say why before he's executed. This will be a federal crime, and the feds have the death penalty.

[Dot Matrix]

Again, this isn't a gun / police / drone / moral debate thread.

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Yea, but did you expect it to NOT turn into one of those? ;-)

[Emn1ty]

11 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

I define 'extremely powerful and dangerous' as any weapons capable of killing large amounts of people in a short amount of time - that includes handguns. Already this year there have been 355 mass shootings, meaning there is more than one a day. A starting point would be to limit the capacity of weapons, as is done in the UK. My family owns several automatic shotguns—yup, firearms aren't banned here despite what you might have heard—but they are limited to three shells at a time. A mass shooting would require a lot of reloading, which would give people time to charge the attacker or escape. Instead you see drums capable of holding hundreds of bullets in the US - there is no legitimate use for such things.

Large capacity magazines you see around are generally physically limited in capacity. Either with a screw welded into them to force less rounds, or any number of other ways. Ones that can't be limited are rendered inoperable. In California, magazine sizes are heavily restricted (<= 10 rounds https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#9). And reloading a magazine takes less than a couple seconds (especially if you aren't worried about picking up your spent ones). So I'm not sure what you mean by "drums capable of holding hundreds of bullets". I honestly don't know where that came from.

[DocM]

Mag size bans are generally ineffective.

 

If you ban a 30 round mag and limit capacity to 10, as is usually the case, a perp can simply follow standard practice and tape 2 mags together for 20 rounds. This takes seconds to eject after 10 and flip.  Rinse, wash repeat with mag pairs taped ahead of time. 

 

It's also almost trivially easy to make or extend a box magazine with basic metal shop skills and materials from a hardware store, not to mention smuggling them in.

 

As to drum magazines: my experience is that often they're a curse, easily jamming. This is on my Russian Saiga 12 tactical shotgun.

[Mockingbird]

13 minutes ago, DocM said:

Mag size bans are generally ineffective.

 

If you ban a 30 round mag and limit capacity to 10, as is usually the case, a perp can simply follow standard practice and tape 2 mags together for 20 rounds. This takes seconds to eject after 10 and flip.  Rinse, wash repeat with mag pairs taped ahead of time. 

 

It's also almost trivially easy to make or extend a box magazine with basic metal shop skills and materials from a hardware store, not to mention smuggling them in.

 

As to drum magazines: my experience is that often they're a curse, easily jamming. This is on my Russian Saiga 12 tactical shotgun.

That's like saying that fences are ineffective because burglars can climb over fences.

[Emn1ty]

20 minutes ago, illegaloperation said:

That's like saying that fences are ineffective because burglars can climb over fences.

If the fence was meant to keep people out, then yes it'd be ineffective.

[DocM]

Who is Sayeed Farook ?

 

http://www.ibtimes.com/who-sayeed-farook-san-bernardino-alleged-shooter-identified-after-police-car-chase-2208965

 

 

Quote

UPDATE 9:50 p.m. EST: 

San Bernardino County public records reveal a person named Syed R. Farook was employed by the health department as an environmental health specialist, the

 Los Angeles Times 

reported. It was not clear if the employee was the same man as the suspect linked to the shooting.

 

Original story:

 

Media reports identified Sayeed Farouk as one of three shooting suspects involved Wednesday in a police standoff after gunmen killed least 14 people and injured at least 17 at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, California. Two suspects -- a female and a male -- were killed and a third was detained Wednesday, authorities said.  

>

 

[techbeck]

6 minutes ago, DocM said:

Who is Sayeed Farook ?

 

http://www.ibtimes.com/who-sayeed-farook-san-bernardino-alleged-shooter-identified-after-police-car-chase-2208965

 

Yea, just read that.  They ever get the 3rd person?  I heard a 3rd was in custody but last I saw, was not positive they had anything to do with things.

 

Appears that the suspects also fired shots at the police and also heard rumors the SUV was rigged to explode.  Lot of unconfirmed reports floating around tho.

[DocM]

LA Times has it now

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html

[DocM]

 

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/2/active-shooter-reported-san-bernardino-20-victims/

 

 

Quote

 A team of gunmen killed 14 people and seriously injured another 17 at a San Bernardino, California, social services agency Wednesday morning, prompting a dragnet that led to a further fatal shootout with police in the city’s streets that killed two suspects.

 

The FBI says it’s a possibility that the shooting is “terrorism.”

 

San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said the attackers “came prepared” to commit maximum mayhem with long guns, camouflage and a plan to enter and leave quickly. Terrorism analysts said the attack bore hallmarks of a sophisticated terrorist operation.

 

“They came prepared to do what they did as if they were on a mission,” said San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan.

 

About four hours after the deadly shooting spree at the Inland Regional Center, there was a lengthy and violent gunfight in the streets of San Bernardino that resulted in further death.

>

 

 

 

[Shiranui]

[DeusProto]

According to CNN, source being the BATFE, one of four of the firearms processed so far was a legal purchase. 

[DocM]

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-nation-live/liveblog/live-updates-san-bernardino-shooting/#8c635a06-e25d-45d6-b996-2482d476341b

 

 

Quote

'Very quiet, not very friendly': Neighbor of suspect speaks

 

A neighbor of Syed Farook in Corona, Calif., said that police came to her home Wednesday and asked her to call them if anyone arrived. So far, she hasn’t seen anyone at the house, and the driveway remains empty.

 

The neighbor, who asked not be named, said Farook and his wife moved in about a year ago, but she doesn’t know much about them. They have a daughter who is about 1 year old.

 

“They’re very quiet, not very friendly,” she said. “I only talked to them to say ‘Hello, how are you?’”

 

She said she was surprised to hear that Farook was named in connection with the shooting in San Bernardino.

 

“It’s somewhat unnerving to think that someone who lives next to you might be involved in that,” she said.

 

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

So if I get this straight...

 

A man working for years as an inspector at a public health department in freaking San Bernardino for years and coming back with a new kid around, then for some reason turning out to have assault rifles and body armor and pipe bombs and two friends who remain unidentified?

 

I'm confused, 

 

Quote

“They’re very quiet, not very friendly,” she said. “I only talked to them to say ‘Hello, how are you?’”

heh, that is a lot more than I talk with my neighbors.

[DocM]

The dead woman has been named, Tiep Bin Ardogan of Qatar. Police are looking for more people from the  apartment. Perhaps a larger cell.  

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Not the wife?

 

This is the most confusing terrorist attack ever (assuming it was one, nothing else makes sense)

[COKid]

My condolences to the victims and their families.

 

Yet another soft target hit. Those poor folks were sitting ducks. I wonder how many of those murdered, in the final moments of their lives, wished that they had a way to defend themselves. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. But California has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. Lot of damn good they did. 

 

And so we will continue to see these mass shootings until gun laws are loosened nationwide, giving the citizenry the ability to defend themselves, in public places as well as in private ones, as the police cannot be everywhere at once. 

 

America needs to get its head out of its butt and grow up. You want a gun culture? Fine. Then the government needs to give folks a reasonable chance at surviving an attack, as opposed to being lambs lead to slaughter on an almost daily basis. 

 

(Note: I was pro gun-control for decades. However, the realities are what they are. Maybe, just maybe, the NRA has been right all along. )