[official] Next Generation HD Format General Discussion

[NateB1]

@Audioboxer: Most of the people I know think a $400 TV is too expensive. I would guess the majority of people are in that position. They are definitely not going to drop $2000 on a TV. This is the mass market. Also, HD-DVD prices are not going to go back up in price, whereas the deals for Blu-Ray players will. As people's DVD players break, they are much more willing to spend $99 on a good upscaling DVD player that includes HD-DVD over an existing DVD only player.

[Coldgunner]

But thats why they buy ps3's, you get so much for the money.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

@Audioboxer: Most of the people I know think a $400 TV is too expensive. I would guess the majority of people are in that position. They are definitely not going to drop $2000 on a TV. This is the mass market. Also, HD-DVD prices are not going to go back up in price, whereas the deals for Blu-Ray players will. As people's DVD players break, they are much more willing to spend $99 on a good upscaling DVD player that includes HD-DVD over an existing DVD only player.

I thought the current Blu Ray giveaways WERE on the TVs?

So what you're saying is the TVs wont sell at that price, and what Boz is saying is the only reason Blu Ray is on top is down to the offers??? - Which means the TV offers ARE selling then?

It's all very well talking about the prices just now, but up until now price has made squat of a difference for Toshiba. They lowered the costs of their HD-DVD players quite a while ago now.

PS3's are winning a huge chunk of this war, down to what you get for the price, and the fact they are marketed as Blu Ray players worldwide.

The 98% of the DVD market as Boz likes to say is untouched "seem" to be taking their time coming over, and the more in favour things look for Blu Ray, and the more Blu Ray prices drop, the less of a chance HD-DVD has when they do flood over.

People buy software as well, want a rain check look at the 360. Better games = More sales. More movies/studio support = More sales.

[NateB1]

But thats why they buy ps3's, you get so much for the money.

Right... The average consumer, who can barely afford a $99 player, who doesn't know what a "home network" is, and could care less about playing games, is going to drop $400 for a game console? :rolleyes: Keep dreaming.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Right... The average consumer, who can barely afford a $99 player, who doesn't know what a "home network" is, and could care less about playing games, is going to drop $400 for a game console? :rolleyes: Keep dreaming.

Yeah the majority of the market interested in HD players have a budget of $99. I love all the research done to back that statement.

Are we now saying the majority of the world lives in poverty?

If people are buying HDTV's which is the only way you're really going to need/enjoy an HD player, they can afford a couple of hundred bux for a player - Especially when they get inticed by x amount of free movies.

Some of the free movie deals practically PAY for your player.

If they have a SD TV, and a budget of $99, they'll no doubt buy a DVD player. Not because it's the better option than the HD-DVD player at $99, it probably isn't, but because they WON'T BE LOOKING for an HD player in the first place. They know they have an SDTV, know they own DVDs... so why on earth would this "average consumer" who doesn't know what a "home network" is suddenly going to go into walmart and buy an HD-DVD player that receives hardly any marketing as an HD player let alone as an upconverting DVD player.

[Coldgunner]

Right... The average consumer, who can barely afford a $99 player, who doesn't know what a "home network" is, and could care less about playing games, is going to drop $400 for a game console? :rolleyes: Keep dreaming.

then they can't afford a hdtv

ps3 is a web browser, music player, blu ray player, ps3 games, ps2 games (some consoles), ps1 games, psp interconnectivity, psn store, dvd upscaler, divx player, photo viewer

I'm having a rather nice dream thank you :D

[NateB1]

I thought the current Blu Ray giveaways WERE on the TVs?

So what you're saying is the TVs wont sell at that price, and what Boz is saying is the only reason Blu Ray is on top is down to the offers??? - Which means the TV offers ARE selling then?

It's all very well talking about the prices just now, but up until now price has made squat of a difference for Toshiba. They lowered the costs of their HD-DVD players quite a while ago now.

PS3's are winning a huge chunk of this war, down to what you get for the price, and the fact they are marketed as Blu Ray players worldwide.

The 98% of the DVD market as Boz likes to say is untouched "seem" to be taking their time coming over, and the more in favour things look for Blu Ray, and the more Blu Ray prices drop, the less of a chance HD-DVD has when they do flood over.

People buy software as well, want a rain check look at the 360. Better games = More sales. More movies/studio support = More sales.

*sigh* The people who are buying the TVs are not your average consumer. I repeat, they are not your average consumer. 21,000 HDTVs sold are are a mere drop in the ocean of hundreds of millions of people.

I agree, if Blu-Ray prices drop to the same price as HD-DVD, then the war will definitely be over. However, that will not happen for years - Sony has to make up its losses sometime - giving plenty of time for the HD-DVD forum to convince the masses to go HD-DVD. In a year, I wouldn't be surprised if a standard HD-DVD player sells for $70-$80. At that price, the average consumer has absolutely nothing to lose. Blu-Ray players will still be in the $100s of dollars.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

then they can't afford a hdtv

ps3 is a web browser, music player, blu ray player, ps3 games, ps2 games (some consoles), ps1 games, psp interconnectivity, psn store, dvd upscaler, divx player, photo viewer

I'm having a rather nice dream thank you :D

While the PS3 is still a good option for your money, it is still expensive and it's mainly doing well as a Blu Ray player due to its marketing.

There are standalone players cheaper than the PS3, but the PS3 probably still outsells them as a Blu Ray player (even although thats speculation and its hard to estimate worldwide how many people play Blu Ray movies on their PS3).

[Coldgunner]

*sigh* The people who are buying the TVs are not your average consumer. I repeat, they are not your average consumer. 21,000 HDTVs sold are are a mere drop in the ocean of hundreds of millions of people.

I agree, if Blu-Ray prices drop to the same price as HD-DVD, then the war will definitely be over. However, that will not happen for years - Sony has to make up its losses sometime - giving plenty of time for the HD-DVD forum to convince the masses to go HD-DVD. In a year, I wouldn't be surprised if a standard HD-DVD player sells for $70-$80. At that price, the average consumer has absolutely nothing to lose. Blu-Ray players will still be in the $100s of dollars.

and thus you have completely negated your original argument

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

*sigh* The people who are buying the TVs are not your average consumer. I repeat, they are not your average consumer. 21,000 HDTVs sold are are a mere drop in the ocean of hundreds of millions of people.

I agree, if Blu-Ray prices drop to the same price as HD-DVD, then the war will definitely be over. However, that will not happen for years - Sony has to make up its losses sometime - giving plenty of time for the HD-DVD forum to convince the masses to go HD-DVD. In a year, I wouldn't be surprised if a standard HD-DVD player sells for $70-$80. At that price, the average consumer has absolutely nothing to lose. Blu-Ray players will still be in the $100s of dollars.

WTF?

EVERYONE buys TVs. EVERYONE will know what an HDTV is by walking into walmart and going oh woah look at that massive 42" TV that is plastered with "HD READY, 720P OR 1080P", or has a sign infront of it going "EXPERIENCE HD CONTENT".

Do not tell me you don't have that in America, we have plently of it here in the UK.

You cannot buy a SD TV in the UK easily anymore, every TV sold here is now "HD READY". Whether it be a small 26" TV or a massive 50" Plasma.

Cheap small options are not expensive either, ranging from a few hundred, obviously up to a few thousand for the really big top end TVs.

And the sad thing for HD-DVD is in just about every retail chain in the UK, a Blu Ray player is sat next to the TV, or the feed pumping through the display TV's is plastered with Blu Ray advertisements.

[NateB1]

@coldgunner and audioboxer:

You can pick up a cheap HDTV for $500. It is a piece of junk, but that is what sells. Not the $2000 TVs. Oh, they sell alright - in the 10s of thousands. You wonder why Vizio is doing so well? Hint: It's not because of the quality of the TVs. If a person spends $500 on an HDTV, the certainly won't want to spend $400 to play HD discs on - especially when the differences isn't nearly as dramatic as it was between VHS and DVD.

You can say all you want about the mass consumer, but I am around them all the time and I see how they respond.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

@coldgunner and audioboxer:

You can pick up a cheap HDTV for $500. It is a piece of junk, but that is what sells. Not the $2000 TVs. Oh, they sell alright - in the 10s of thousands. You wonder why Vizio is doing so well? Hint: It's not because of the quality of the TVs. If a person spends $500 on an HDTV, the certainly won't want to spend $400 to play HD discs on - especially when the differences isn't nearly as dramatic as it was between VHS and DVD.

You can say all you want about the mass consumer, but I am around them all the time and I see how they respond.

And you don't need to spend $400!

I'd say the majority of people who buy an HDTV on the day, will want to experience HD content in some way either then, or in a short time period after buying their TV.

I don't want to put anyone down, but I think some of you underestimate the amount of money we spend on electronics, especially in the TV/home cinema/movie category.... and im talking about "normal" people.

Normal people will have a decent-good mid-range HDTV and some form of HD player.

Rich people will have a top end home cinema setup, HD player that does full 1080p, a speaker system that probably cost as much as the TV, ect.

I think some of you really turn these "normal consumers" into peasants :/ Or at least too high a % of them.

[NateB1]

WTF?

EVERYONE buys TVs. EVERYONE will know what an HDTV is by walking into walmart and going oh woah look at that massive 42" TV that is plastered with "HD READY, 720P OR 1080P", or has a sign infront of it going "EXPERIENCE HD CONTENT".

Do not tell me you don't have that in America, we have plently of it here in the UK.

You cannot buy a SD TV in the UK easily anymore, every TV sold here is now "HD READY". Whether it be a small 26" TV or a massive 50" Plasma.

Cheap small options are not expensive either, ranging from a few hundred, obviously up to a few thousand.

And the sad thing for HD-DVD is in just about every retail chain in the UK, a Blu Ray player is sat next to the TV, or the feed pumping through the display TV's is plastered with Blu Ray advertisements.

Believe it or not, I've talked to people who really can't tell the difference between SD content and HD content. It sounds preposterous to us technophiles, but they really don't care. I've talked to numerous people about this - I'm not making it up. All they care about is if their TV breaks or it won't receive over the air signals due to the switchover to digital in the US, and then they will go the store, pick out the cheapest model, and buy it. They probably won't buy any player to go with their new "HDTV" (why spend more money on something that isn't necessary?), but when their DVD player finally breaks, they will replace it with a comparable priced player. I can tell you one thing - it won't be a Blu-Ray player.

[Coldgunner]

maybe not $400 for a standalone, but for a games console that is also a player yes

the average hdtv in this country is ?400-?500, PS3 is ?260, HDDVD standalone ~?170. joe bloggs sees hddvd player and sees ps3, opts to pay extra for ps3 due to the extra functions, another bd player sold.

the succesful uptake of a new format does NOT rely solely on the US market. HDDVD is still expensive in the rest of the world and hasn't taken off.

a bd and hd disc is roughly the same ~?20 price too

[NateB1]

And you don't need to spend $400!

I'd say the majority of people who buy an HDTV on the day, will want to experience HD content in some way either then, or in a short time period after buying their TV.

I don't want to put anyone down, but I think some of you underestimate the amount of money we spend on electronics, especially in the TV/home cinema/movie category.

Maybe I hang around the wrong people, then. Most of the people I hang around are on a tight budget, can't afford "luxury" items like HDTVs, 5.1 surround sound systems, etc. Their annual budget for consumer electronics is $100 or less. No, I'm not kidding. Buying a $500 HDTV will be a big expense.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Maybe I hang around the wrong people, then. Most of the people I hang around are on a tight budget, can't afford "luxury" items like HDTVs, 5.1 surround sound systems, etc. Their annual budget for consumer electronics is $100 or less. No, I'm not kidding. Buying a $500 HDTV will be a big expense.

That is one side of the picture, but its not the predominant side.

My only experience is the friends I hang around with like you, except in most cases it's their parents buying TV's/HD players and them buying consoles.

See the thing is we're mostly talking about adults buying these goods, not students/younger people.

And from when I worked in the bank (which I did for 2 years), a lot of the debt people clear off in the UK is from buying electronic goods. It's usually built up on cards and contains many purchases, but a fair chunk of it goes down to things like TV's/clothes/holidays/ect.

Couple that with the buy now pay no interest for 1~2 years offer on nearly every TV in the UK, and people buy them. Or buy now, pay nothing till 2009.

I'm sure the states has similar offers, heck Sonys TV offer with their Sony Card in the US had buy now, pay no interest for 12 months.

So there are money options to make things affordable for people without as high a budget - These will be the types of people who take loans for cars and what not. They can't afford to walk in and wap down 5k for a car, just like they'll still struggle to walk in and wap down ?600-700 in cash for a TV.

And credit isn't a bad thing if you're disciplined and work it well. Heck I helped out many people with loans in the bank, and I even know of friends who could of bought something outright but went for a 12m no interest or something just to space out the payments for more breathing room.

[Coldgunner]

I work with mainly 20-40 year olds, predominantly males, and we're all into tech. spending ?1000 on a tv and ?260 on a ps3 ain't a major thing.

its the market hd is aimed at atm, with the family home also in mind.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I work with mainly 20-40 year olds, predominantly males, and we're all into tech. spending ?1000 on a tv and ?260 on a ps3 ain't a major thing.

its the market hd is aimed at atm, with the family home also in mind.

Ahah, what's that kinda business like then? ;:p:p I jest!:shiftyninja:a:

I know what you're saying though, TV & Home Cinema is becoming more of a main point in the household nowadays - Have you got the latest and best? How many films do you own? Will you guests be bored when they come over? Have your kids got enough to watch?

Everyone I know has about 2-6 dvd players in their homes, and a decent to large collection of movies.

I see the exact same thing happening with HD content.

You don't invest in a TV to last 1 year, a purchase of a good HDTV will last you years - It's not money wasted, it's money well spent. My TV for example has a 5yr warranty, and I sure as hell still plan to have the TV in 5 years.

[Boz]

Agree with Nate. My close friends are the type of people that could scrape up maybe $1500 for an HDTV but that's like really really stretching it and they will definitely not be able to buy a $400 player or PS3 console next to that as they have a kid or two, school, house expenses etc etc.

Here, my extremely good friend Dzemal. He just bought this holiday a $1600 Samsung 46" screen. It was the best deal, full 1080p, great TV for hte money. It was a big deal even to spend that much money but he said what the hell I just want to get Samsung over Vizio. I don't blame him.

But in this whole approach, there was ABSOLUTELY no space for him to buy any player, little less $400 one. This is the whole point. I gave him my HD DVD add-on for his Xbox 360 he picked up a while back (and that Xbox was Arcade he bought for $250 and where I gave him the 20gb hard drive I had lying around).

So he has a $1500-something HDTV no money at all for anything else and enjoys HD DVD now because I gave it to him. Now, all everyone on the Blu-Ray camp is telling me that my friend should buy a $400+ player.. WHY? He wasn't involved with HD at all. When he bought an HDTV he was plenty satisifed with his DVD player.

Now, a few days ago he comes to my house and we start talking about HD in general and I tell him that he can get a standalone player HD DVD player for $140 at full 1080p at Circuit City as they have a sale and he goes all excited and says "Wow that's so great, I'll go pick it up, even I CAN AFFORD THAT".

My friend belongs to a 80% or even more target audience that is now getting into HD, or "mainstream consumer" if you will. He is far from poor, but is extremely money limited due to many other factors in his life and electronics is a distant 10th place for him.

In order for HDM to grow, we need people like him to go and pick up a player without even hesitating and $100 HD DVD players will do that while Blu-Ray won't, not because Blu-Ray can't lower the costs, but because their whole model and investement in this format war is based on higher prices of players and software in the long run.

[Coldgunner]

Ahah, what's that kinda business like then? ;) :p I jest! :shiftyninja:

FYI Software Development (Tester), just wanna make that clear lol

hd isn't really aimed at the low budget market yet, although it is starting to filter down.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

You don't need to spend $400!

Blu Ray players on amazon for $250.

I love how you guys think your examples apply for the world. If they did HD-DVD would be booming. We're all poor people who can't afford to buy a player after splashing out ?600-700 on a TV.

Maybe you don't buy the player right away, but you save up to buy it like you did the TV, and it sure won't take you as long.

I know not everyone can afford to pay a lot, but a lot of people can afford to buy players/TVs at the prices they are at.

If you spend $1500 on an HDTV, getting your player for around say $250 (1/6th of the cost), and knowing both devices will last you for years, it doesn't seem as expensive.

How often do people upgrade their TVs? Not often. How often have people upgraded their DVD players? Not often, heck most families went and bought more.

A TV/player is not something you invest in every year. There's old TV's kicking about in my house that are probably as old as me!:laugh::

Movie players are essential to people, theres only soo much joy you can get watching the same old re-runs on normal broadcast.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Audioboxer

[Boz]

You don't need to spend $400!

Blu Ray players on amazon for $250.

I love how you guys think your examples apply for the world. If they did HD-DVD would be booming.

I know not everyone can afford to pay a lot, but a lot of people can afford to buy players/TVs at the prices they are at.

First of all, $250 player is clearance as those players are not being made anymore. They are going to be replaced with 1.1 profile players.

I can't recommend anyone to still shell out 2-3 times more for a player that will not allow them to fully take advantage of their new titles. What kind of BS is that. Not to mention that it might not even work on the 1.0 profile players, but even if it works, you are still getting a player that doesn't support all features.

It's not even about features, it's the fact that you want to get MORE for what you pay for, not less. I find it absolutely irresponsible and agenda based to recommend those players to anyone. Hell even media outlets are point out about this fact.

Your best bet is either $400 PS3 or $400 Panasonic as Profile 1.1 (and even that Panasonic lacks some things like online access).

[Coldgunner]

how many times, all bd movies have to work on at least profile 1.0. its a requirement in the authoring.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

First of all, $250 player is clearance as those players are not being made anymore. They are going to be replaced with 1.1 profile players.

I can't recommend anyone to still shell out 2-3 times more for a player that will not allow them to fully take advantage of their new titles. What kind of BS is that. Not to mention that it might not even work on the 1.0 profile players, but even if it works, you are still getting a player that doesn't support all features.

It's not even about features, it's the fact that you want to get MORE for what you pay for, not less. I find it absolutely irresponsible and agenda based to recommend those players to anyone. Hell even media outlets are point out about this fact.

Your best bet is either $400 PS3 or $400 Panasonic as Profile 1.1 (and even that Panasonic lacks some things like online access).

Fair enough, but they still work and it seems people are still buying them.

We don't know how the situation with movies will work out later.

The Blu Ray profiling nonsense is a joke, and it's a shame.... but it's not had much effect in limiting sales for Toshiba. (or should I say helping increase Toshibas sales with their profile 2.0 players).

What we'll need to hope is things are sorted with profiling before your 98% of the DVD market make their move Boz!

how many times, all bd movies have to work on at least profile 1.0. its a requirement in the authoring.

Didn't know that, it true?

I assume it's all the MOVIE parts need to work, obviously some extras might not work.

[Boz]

FYI Software Development (Tester), just wanna make that clear lol

hd isn't really aimed at the low budget market yet, although it is starting to filter down.

Judging by who? The BDA?

if we look at HD DVD, yes it is. True, HD titles are expensive to DVD ones but one of the reasons they are is because of low volume of production. HD DVD at least gives consumers even more with those prices because it includes both SD and DVD version of the movie on the same disc for pretty much the same price as Blu-ray these days. So, it's clear, HD DVD is going after the low budget where everyone should get HD as it is the only way to get mass adoption as a lot of people are very satisfied with DVDs. Hell I just watched an upscaled DVD on my Elite TV and was blown away how good it looked compared to HD. I mean I love HD but I see why some people just can't justify buying anything HD except the TV because costs from Blu-Ray outweigh the benefits and even in HD DVD case you get MORE despite the 3 times lower price.