Sony calls out Xbox and Wii as flea market peddlers

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

ftr, a 100 meter tp cable wouldn't be category 5:p (well technically it woudl falljust within as the spec says 90 meters max, but with 5 meters of patch cabe at each end)

and yes, that's completely off topic :p

Yeah I was gonna say, but I doubt many people are interested here lol.

I played games online for years on wireless and it was no issue at all. Download speeds fine also.

Seriously, complaints about wireless gaming are completely blown out of proportion at times.

My signal would be from 65-80% across devices and PC.

I never intended this to be blown up, it's just as I was someone in a position previously who needed wireless, it's a bit daft seeing people say it's a luxury. Many people do need it to get connected, that's all.

Not every house is setup, or has an easy layout for running ethernet cable from under your TV.

Ok, but it's just as much of an inconvenience to use wireless as it is for wired when routers have weak signals. Not everyone has walls made of paper :p

It is definitely not blown out of proportion though, its a very real and common problem. Wired > wireless, you can't argue with the facts.

Obviously it works out for you because you're signal is still strong enough to carry the bandwidth it needs for gaming. You're not maxing the bandwidth for downloads/uplaods though. I'm talking about the people who insist on using weak signals though.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

but it's still not a necessity, a necessity would be if everyone needed it to play gams with the console or needed it to play online at the very least.

You still didn't reply saying wether you thought it wasn't a better idea that those that actually need it pay or it rather than everyone having to pay for something a minority will need and use.

By logic to me a necessity for a console is something you need to do basic functions. Without internet access you can't access online, and that's a basic function to me seeing as how integral online functionality is to these consoles, even the Wii.

In regards to people that don't plan to game online, they still need to hookup online to get updates for their games and system or view/take part in the other online services Live offers.

Seeing as wireless even comes in the DS, I seriously doubt you'd of been "paying" for it if MS had included it in the 360. For arguments sake they could've kept it back from the arcade, but not having wireless in the Pro/Elite is pretty meh.

So for the people stuck needing wireless, no I don't think it's a great idea for no model to include it as the option is an expensive addon. That's another argument though, one which I don't want to beat to death again with others.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

If Sony had to cut costs on the parts of the PS2 they included in the PS3, surely you can understand that wifi components are still a cost when considering the 360? And Sony haven't been losing money on PS2 components in how long?

It swings both ways.

They could have stuck some cheap ass wifi chip in there, but then its an expense not even doing it's job well..

Anyways, as much fun as it is going round in circles with you AB, there is a Metallica documentary on, and 'Tallica > AB :p

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

If Sony had to cut costs on the parts of the PS2 they included in the PS3, surely you can understand that wifi components are still a cost when considering the 360? And Sony haven't been losing money on PS2 components in how long?

It swings both ways.

They could have stuck some cheap as wifi chip in there, but then its an expense not even doing it's job well..

Lack of PS2 components in the PS3 does nothing to impact on PS3 or PSN services though.

I understand cost cutting works both ways, but I don't feel leaving wireless out on the big premium model that was the elite was all that great a proposition. That really should of been Microsoft's include it all model that required no addons at all for every gamer.

We're not going anywhere, I feel wireless is quite an important part of a console, others don't, we'll leave it at that. Any money though the next Xbox has both from the start ;)

[HawkMan]

By logic to me a necessity for a console is something you need to do basic functions. Without internet access you can't access online, and that's a basic function to me seeing as how integral online functionality is to these consoles, even the Wii.

In regards to people that don't plan to game online, they still need to hookup online to get updates for their games and system or view/take part in the other online services Live offers.

Seeing as wireless even comes in the DS, I seriously doubt you'd of been "paying" for it if MS had included it in the 360. For arguments sake they could've kept it back from the arcade, but not having wireless in the Pro/Elite is pretty meh.

So for the people stuck needing wireless, no I don't think it's a great idea for no model to include it as the option is an expensive addon. That's another argument though, one which I don't want to beat to death again with others.

Correction, the DS comes with very bad wireless :p

and if MS was to keep every little feature people might need and a minority of users do need. well then they'd never be able to reduce prices so much so early. and they would be losing more money on the consoles. Kind oflike someone else :p

Seriusly it doesn't make sense to have wireless as a standard feature. yeah sure, lots of peopel use wireless, but those lots of people are still a HUGE minority compared to those that do not. right out of the air with no backing at all, I'd say 10% at best. Those who do need wireless, guess what, they can stil get wireless, they just buy the wlan dongle and snap it into the back of the 360 and it's as if it's a part of the console. How is that not a better solution for the majority if not all users. it means more users can afford the lower end consoles without paying for features they don't need, wich means more people to play with.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Correction, the DS comes with very bad wireless :p

and if MS was to keep every little feature people might need and a minority of users do need. well then they'd never be able to reduce prices so much so early. and they would be losing more money on the consoles. Kind oflike someone else :p

Seriusly it doesn't make sense to have wireless as a standard feature. yeah sure, lots of peopel use wireless, but those lots of people are still a HUGE minority compared to those that do not. right out of the air with no backing at all, I'd say 10% at best. Those who do need wireless, guess what, they can stil get wireless, they just buy the wlan dongle and snap it into the back of the 360 and it's as if it's a part of the console. How is that not a better solution for the majority if not all users. it means more users can afford the lower end consoles without paying for features they don't need, wich means more people to play with.

HawkMan, last thing I'll say, see what I wrote above.

MS have 3 models on the market, they're primed for being able to offer a cheap 360, and that comes through the Arcade. I said earlier for arguments sake WiFi could be lacking in the Arcade, but I don't feel it's great it's lacking in the Pro, but especially the Elite.

You talk about value proposition and that's what having 3 models is, but I totally believe your most expensive model should pack it all and require no additional addons.

Anyway, as I said to Munky, let's call our opinions varied and call it a day :p

I'm not on wireless any more anyway, and never shall be again, unless a mouse or something chews through my cable that goes into the loft :laugh:

[Matrix XII]

I agree with that Hawkman, so many people are behind the times, I bet a large number of PS3 owners don't even know about the integrated wireless.

One thing I learned when I used to work at Future Shop is people are dumb.

[red.]

I agree that buying isn't that much of a problem. However, surely i can't be the only one thinking that it costs way too much. Almost half the price of the console (arcade) is ridiculous.

[HawkMan]

HawkMan, last thing I'll say, see what I wrote above.

MS have 3 models on the market, they're primed for being able to offer a cheap 360, and that comes through the Arcade. I said earlier for arguments sake WiFi could be lacking in the Arcade, but I don't feel it's great it's lacking in the Pro, but especially the Elite.

You talk about value proposition and that's what having 3 models is, but I totally believe your most expensive model should pack it all and require no additional addons.

Anyway, as I said to Munky, let's call our opinions varied and call it a day :p

I'm not on wireless any more anyway, and never shall be again, unless a mouse or something chews through my cable that goes into the loft :laugh:

Removing a key hardware item such as the wlan from one sku while havign it in others doesn't make sense.

if you notice, unlike a certain other console. the 360 has the exact same hardware in all SKU's motherboard upgrades aside. the only thing that changes is the external addon like the HDD as well as the lack of a headset and colors.

and I bought a PRemium for my first console, then upgraded to an elite when the NXE was announced. according to you, I woudl have had to pay for the WLand addon twice, and I wouldn't have used it either time. the increased price of having the wlan dongle on the elite would probably also have made me just buy a 120 disk instead of upgrading to an elite.

so I'm still going to go with my tatement that it's better left out. and that those who need it can buy the dongle along with their console and pretend it's one single more expensive SKU just for them :p

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Removing a key hardware item such as the wlan from one sku while havign it in others doesn't make sense.

Wait so now wireless is a "key hardware item"? :p

The Arcade SKU already has the hard drive missing in comparison to the Pro/Elite, did you forget that?

[Emn1ty]

Okay "100m" :p I'm sure someone else said 100m and I just tagged along with it ;)

I said 100ft, not 100m (329ft). I have one of those and it can run half way across my house and it is basically a two story house on one floor. It is huge and on a 1 acre lot (which it takes up 1/4 of).

Still the thing is, it's a pain in the ass to find a way to staple the cable all along the wall, through doors and into other rooms if you don't have a phone jack in the room your TV/console is in. You can't just drag a cable across your floor, out your door and around your house :p

I do. It just takes some clever covering to make it unnoticeable. That or just fit your home with ethernet ports yourself (homes should start coming with them standard IMO).

Didn't know the Wii has an ethernet addon! It probably costs a bomb also.

Just like Sony's extra controllers, one of the most expensive single controllers of the three consoles and that is your only option unless you go third party. You can get a 360 wired controller for $15 less, and a wireless one for $5 less and the wireless w/ charger bundle for the same price as the PS3 one. Sure, they are comparable but at least MS gives you an option. The main point is, AB, is that you cannot argue that anyone requires anything here. Some people need wired and some people need wireless. That is why I said the only requirement is some form of connection, which in no way is a contradiction because that is the truth. Be it wired or wireless, to play online that is your only requirement. The most flexible and cost-effective is a wired connection, but wireless is a more convenient solution but costs more.

Looking at this, Microsoft chose to give you the choice. They give you an option, which has been their slogan since before launch. You can't kick and scream about them doing what they said they would. The only option sony gives you is trim or no trim. It used to be BC or no BC but now even that has gone away.

Wait so now wireless is a "key hardware item"? :p

The Arcade SKU already has the hard drive missing in comparison to the Pro/Elite, did you forget that?

And? The Hard Drive isn't a key hardware item because it is an external piece of hardware. If you built an SKU with something built in then two versions that didn't have it, that is two different production lines that need to be made for the two differing items. This is why have external add-ons is far more efficient than internal peripherals, because you can improve on them separate of the console and continue to decrease the console's price.

[Coldgunner]

Erm, some of us are forgetting that wireless didn't do to well when it was taken out due to it being used for remote play. 20gb owners could connect via their routers but if its anything like my crappy router, you get lag spikes if there is other heavy network traffic.

So much as I have my PS3 wired, I still use wireless cos I still use remote play.

[HawkMan]

Wait so now wireless is a "key hardware item"? :p

The Arcade SKU already has the hard drive missing in comparison to the Pro/Elite, did you forget that?

didn't bother to read the rest since that wouldn't have left you with anything to actually argue with, did you ? :p

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

didn't bother to read the rest since that wouldn't have left you with anything to actually argue with, did you ? :p

I was pointing out how you contradicted yourself.

Removing a key hardware item such as the wlan from one sku while havign it in others doesn't make sense.

the 360 has the exact same hardware in all SKU's motherboard upgrades aside.

and then you say...

the only thing that changes is the external addon like the HDD as well as the lack of a headset and colors.

In relation to my argument, having the elite and/or pro with wireless and the other(s) without, is no different than selling two of the 360's with hard drives and one without. Which is what I was trying to say to you, but you came back at me saying it wouldn't make sense.

[Emn1ty]

In relation to my argument, having the elite and/or pro with wireless and the others without, is no different than selling two of the 360's with hard drives and one without. Which is what I was trying to say to you, but you came back at me saying it wouldn't make sense.

It isn't a contradiction, unless you want the external wireless add-on bundled with the Elite, which would still probably add on another $40-$60 to the Elite price. If you want one SKU with wlan built into it, that doesn't make any sense (more above your post in my previous post about this).

[HawkMan]

Ah yeah. the usual, audioboxer tactic of going off on arguing somethign completely irrelevant and ignoring the actual arguments.

By Key I mean if they put the wlan inside the xbox, they'd have to actually have different hardware. If the bundled the dongle like the bundle the harddrives. I as a premium and elite owner would still have to pay for hardware i do not use, like millions of other users. And as I said, it would probably have increased the price of the elite enough that I wouldn't have gotten it.

It easy to just buy the dongle separately, would you rather they created a separate SKU or two just two include the dongle. Seriusly how hard can it be for the small minority who needs wireless to just buy the dongle ? why should everyone else need to have the dongle or built in wlan inlcuded in their price ?

and to reiterate, the dongle is not key hardware, but wlan included on the motheboard would be key hardware, requiring MS to produce different motherboard for the different SKU's

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Goodnight guys, you win the last word :p

I've said my part, I REALLY can't be bothered beating things to death any more, there is absolutely nothing for any of us to gain now.

Things are the way they are, everyone and their dogs know how each of us feel, and nothing is going to change.

[Ricardo Gil]

I agree with that Hawkman, so many people are behind the times, I bet a large number of PS3 owners don't even know about the integrated wireless.

Funny you mentioned that. Just happened today with one of my co-workers, asking me if his PS3 had wireless. The truth is most people don't know half of what they have available on their consoles. They're just not hardcore enough.

[Ricardo Gil]

I'm glad I didn't pay for wireless on my xbox. My PS3's wireless is never used, only a few times with remote play, but it's laggy and useless anyway so...

Choice is what matters here imo, and I find it strange that people bitch about having it.

Maybe Sony could start making all its TV's with a blu-ray player built in. I'd like to see everyone's opinion on that, especially from those who already have one. Not having a choice sucks, doesn't it?

[spenser.d]

^^^

+1

I think that the majority of the market wouldn't have a use for built-in wireless so I'm glad I didn't have to pay for it.

-Spenser

[Emorex]

Goodnight guys, you win the last word :p

I've said my part, I REALLY can't be bothered beating things to death any more, there is absolutely nothing for any of us to gain now.

Things are the way they are, everyone and their dogs know how each of us feel, and nothing is going to change.

Wow...hypocrite. You said the same thing in your first post. Wonder when we will see your next Anti-360 post.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Maybe Sony could start making all its TV's with a blu-ray player built in. I'd like to see everyone's opinion on that, especially from those who already have one. Not having a choice sucks, doesn't it?

Yes because including Blu Ray in a TV is in-line with including wireless in a gaming console :blink:

The only argument I ever made with consoles including wireless was when you're buying the more expensive 360 models, I personally find it a bit of a kick in the nads to still have to buy addons that directly affect the operability levels of the console.

The cheap models should be the ones you need to add to, not those bearing the premium prices.

I never said remove all choice from the 360's, having choice works great from a marketing level and for consumers wanting things as cheap as possible. It's why Sony ain't seeing all that great front loaded sales, they've stuck with the "all in one console", and therefore can't offer a cheap model to rival competitor pricing. It's a completely different approach than MS and is not showing them the sales MS are currently getting. Their all in one model will come down in price, and their sales are bound to increase when it does, but it keeps people not wanting to shell out waiting and/or going and investing in other consoles.

Had to clarify that Ricardo, as your comments were most certainly aimed at me - And no I wasn't bitching about it, I just share a completely different viewpoint on

a) The importance of wireless

and

b) The balance between addon pricing and including such addons as default in more expensive models

None of it affects me any more though, after years of wireless I've gone wired, I'm merely having a discussion, not a bitch - If you had got me last year it may have been more of a bitch whilst my 360 was connection sharing with my laptop :p

It sounds like most of you have always had the pleasure of gaming wired, I haven't and it was completely out of my control until home improvements helped me out. Prior to that it just was not logical or practical for me to run an ethernet cable to where my router was located from my room. I don't like to be unfairly argumentative, but really, for those in here saying "everything can be done wired anywhere in the house", seriously, it can't, not without a lot of effort and/or compromise in some scenarios.

A 360 including wireless when I bought mine would've been ideal for me as a consumer and would've saved me money - So I guess while choice is great, I didn't feel back then MS offered the suitable choice for the consumer who wants it all, no extra expense, everything in the one package - That as we've established doesn't need to be every model, no, that would defeat choice, but it would somewhat make sense for it to at least be one model, the most expensive one.

But whatever the argument, we can all agree the multi-tier model approach has been successful, even if it stings some people with high add-on prices.

Wow...hypocrite. You said the same thing in your first post. Wonder when we will see your next Anti-360 post.

Thanks for your input Emorex, vastly worthwhile to the forum, you should keep it up.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Audioboxer

[RPDL]

All these arguments against the PS3 are valid. And so are the ones against the Xbox 360 and the Wii.

That's why I love my PC. Did Sony say anything against the PC? No. It already has all these features the console fanboys are bragging about, and then some!

[Emn1ty]

Yes because including Blu Ray in a TV is in-line with including wireless in a gaming console :blink:

It compares quite well.

The only argument I ever made with consoles including wireless was when you're buying the more expensive 360 models, I personally find it a bit of a kick in the nads to still have to buy addons that directly affect the operability levels of the console.

It doesn't affect operation. It isn't like a game loads faster with wireless.

I never said remove all choice from the 360's, having choice works great from a marketing level and for consumers wanting things as cheap as possible.

But you seem to have a beef with it.

It sounds like most of you have always had the pleasure of gaming wired, I haven't and it was completely out of my control until home improvements helped me out. Prior to that it just was not logical or practical for me to run an ethernet cable to where my router was located from my room. I don't like to be unfairly argumentative, but really, for those in here saying "everything can be done wired anywhere in the house", seriously, it can't, not without a lot of effort and/or compromise in some scenarios.

The fact is it can, in a house at least. Unless you are more than 100ft from the source or don't own the router/switch, then it is possible. Maybe not convenient, but possible.

A 360 including wireless when I bought mine would've been ideal for me as a consumer and would've saved me money - So I guess while choice is great, I didn't feel back then MS offered the suitable choice for the consumer who wants it all, no extra expense, everything in the one package - That as we've established doesn't need to be every model, no, that would defeat choice, but it would somewhat make sense for it to at least be one model.

How many times will I have to say this, Audio. YOU ARE NOT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER. What YOU want doesn't apply, it is what the average consumer will use that does. The average consumer doesn't need or even know about wireless access, let alone want to use it since most don't use the online capabilities. So this argument is already about one minority arguing against an even smaller one. You argue like everyone knows everything there is to know about using a console, when most of the time they don't. I even got a call about a broken x-box AT TARGET! They didn't even know to call the manufacturer when the product broke.

All these arguments against the PS3 are valid. And so are the ones against the Xbox 360 and the Wii.

That's why I love my PC. Did Sony say anything against the PC? No. It already has all these features the console fanboys are bragging about, and then some!

Yeah, and the need to upgrade every year or two not to mention DRM.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

It compares quite well.

I'm sorry, but what?

Including Blu Ray Technology/Drive in a TV, compares with putting a wireless chip in a gaming console?

:/

It doesn't affect operation. It isn't like a game loads faster with wireless.

If you can't get on the internet, that affects operation.

But you seem to have a beef with it.

I have no beef with it. I have no beef with anything. In fact, I've come to praise the multi-console approach more than I used to - See Kushan's thread on the Arcade.

I merely believe including wireless in at least the higher end models would've been a good idea.

Many of you are opposed to that though, which has sparked this discussion. I said leave things and call it a night on the previous page as we're not going to change our opinion. That wasn't being rude, I just don't know where else we can go with this discussion :p

The fact is it can, in a house at least. Unless you are more than 100ft from the source or don't own the router/switch, then it is possible. Maybe not convenient, but possible.

There are levels of what's practical, it was not practical for me to do it previously, and neither is it for others - Or else no one would buy the MS wireless addon, everyone would just buy a long ethernet cable and save a good chunk of money.

How many times will I have to say this, Audio. YOU ARE NOT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER. What YOU want doesn't apply, it is what the average consumer will use that does. The average consumer doesn't need or even know about wireless access, let alone want to use it since most don't use the online capabilities. So this argument is already about one minority arguing against an even smaller one. You argue like everyone knows everything there is to know about using a console, when most of the time they don't. I even got a call about a broken x-box AT TARGET! They didn't even know to call the manufacturer when the product broke.

If there's 18 million Live users, and 17 million PSN users, I'd say quite a lot of people use online capabilities.

And how is what I want not appealing to a consumer?

I want to access online, and play games online - Two of the most appealing things of each console.