Sony calls out Xbox and Wii as flea market peddlers

[spenser.d]

^^^The average consumer doesn't care about about wireless and probably wouldn't know how to set that up.

-Spenser

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

^^^The average consumer doesn't care about about wireless and probably wouldn't know how to set that up.

-Spenser

How can you draw conclusions like that?

Wireless has nothing to do with "an average consumer". Its a means of internet access, not an individual technology. It's incorporated in multiple real world products, it's not exclusive to gaming consoles.

When you try to go online your 360 TELLS YOU, you need an ethernet cable or wireless adapter.

And please don't be too condescending on consumers, it's not as if wireless is new technology. Practically every single major IP in the UK gives your a free wireless router with your broadband connection and instructions on what it is.

Not to mention phones/PCs and everything else are connecting over wireless nowadays.

I'm sorry, but I really can't believe we're about to go and claim masses of the 360 population don't know what wireless is. Like I said earlier when I brought the Wii into this, I wonder how the 40 million casual Wii owners are getting on with their Wireless only console :/

[spenser.d]

We're talking about wireless networking though, not wireless as in how a phone or iPod is wireless. There's overhead and work involved in getting a wireless home network set up and you are kidding yourself if you think the majority of the market wants to bother with that or even could bother with it.

I'm not being condescending, but the market in general is not that smart when it comes to technology, and networking can be a pain in the ass for people who do know what they are doing.

With the way the economy is, I'd bet the market is just fine not paying to have a wireless adapter included. Microsoft isn't stupid, they must have some knowledge about that situation. They chose not to include it for a reason and it's working out pretty well for them. Can't say the same for Sony.

-Spenser

[Growled Member]

I think this might be too little to late for Sony.

[Emn1ty]

I'm sorry, but what?

Including Blu Ray Technology/Drive in a TV, compares with putting a wireless chip in a gaming console?

:/

Yes, including something a minority sees as essential when it isn't necessary for the product.

If you can't get on the internet, that affects operation.

How? My dad's 360 has never once been online and it works fine.

I merely believe including wireless in at least the higher end models would've been a good idea.

Many of you are opposed to that though, which has sparked this discussion. I said leave things and call it a night on the previous page as we're not going to change our opinion. That wasn't being rude, I just don't know where else we can go with this discussion :p

No, but it is being hypocritical since you aren't doing what you said you would. We can argue and you have every right and ability to stop discussing it. Don't get mad at us because like us, you can't stop arguing.

There are levels of what's practical, it was not practical for me to do it previously, and neither is it for others - Or else no one would buy the MS wireless addon, everyone would just buy a long ethernet cable and save a good chunk of money.

You argued possibility not practicality. Practicality varies from home to home, but possibility doesn't. Wired connections are always an option where wireless ones sometimes aren't.

If there's 18 million Live users, and 17 million PSN users, I'd say quite a lot of people use online capabilities.

And how is what I want not appealing to a consumer?

I want to access online, and play games online - Two of the most appealing things of each console.

What you want is not the equivalent of what the consumer wants, it is only what you want. Get it? What I mean is that you are part of the minority even among console owners.

If there are 27 million 360's then over half of the users are online. Okay, not a big deal. Actually, funny since the wireless isn't included. The PS3 has 20 million units sold and over half are online also, so far so good. We have established that online players are a majority in those two consoles. Funny thing is that the Wii has sold 46 million units and yet there is no statistic that I can find of how many people use online, so I will give them a generous 8 million users. Now, if we add that up and do a little math, we come out with about 47% of all console owners using online connections. Now just being online is a minority for a general console owner.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

How? My dad's 360 has never once been online and it works fine.

Your dad doesn't need internet access, period.

Obviously it's only imperative to those seeking internet use.

For them it does affect the console.

No, but it is being hypocritical since you aren't doing what you said you would. We can argue and you have every right and ability to stop discussing it. Don't get mad at us because like us, you can't stop arguing.

I'm not mad at you, and discussion has furthered to actually discussing wireless more than it has the 360 and/or it's addon which is why it's progressed.

You argued possibility not practicality. Practicality varies from home to home, but possibility doesn't. Wired connections are always an option where wireless ones sometimes aren't.

The possibility and practicality are closely linked.

Seeing as previously the possibility of me using wired was practically zero, as it was in no way practical.

Wired connections are not always an option, for a sensible arguments sake - Not just to argue the semantic of "hey anything is possible".

What you want is not the equivalent of what the consumer wants, it is only what you want. Get it? What I mean is that you are part of the minority even among console owners.

If there are 27 million 360's then over half of the users are online. Okay, not a big deal. Actually, funny since the wireless isn't included. The PS3 has 20 million units sold and over half are online also, so far so good. We have established that online players are a majority in those two consoles. Funny thing is that the Wii has sold 46 million units and yet there is no statistic that I can find of how many people use online, so I will give them a generous 8 million users. Now, if we add that up and do a little math, we come out with about 47% of all console owners using online connections. Now just being online is a minority for a general console owner.

I can turn that argument and twist it on you, it's not a very well thought out remark "what you want is not what everyone wants".

It's very true, but I never claimed what I wanted was what everyone wants. What I want is clearly only applicible to others who want to use wireless, shown by the backlash my opinions received by those with no interest in wireless.

In one sense I wouldn't expect many of you to agree, but you're also taking your opinion of "wireless doesn't matter" and countering mine as if what you're also saying is what everyone wants.

That's the vicious cycle which can get tedious for both of us.

And you cannot seriously just pull 8 million out the hat for the Wii...

Now we talk about being wireless. Here you will see that only the US has a majority using wireless, not one other country is over 13%. Now do you see my point about wireless users being a huge minority, especially outside the US?

That comes as no surprise.

The USA has one of the most advanced broadband infrastructures and the largest population in the world (I believe?).

That does not prove wireless is in a minority, to prove wireless is a minority you'd also need to see the statistics showing how many houses/people are in total connected to the internet - Then you could conduct the % of these houses on wired.

I do concede wired connections WILL outnumber wireless, but not in a way that makes wireless pointless, an afterthought, a gimmick, or something "general consumers" don't need/want.

edit: Another flaw in using those statistics for THIS topics discussion

The iPass Mobile Broadband Index summarizes 3G and Wi-Fi hotspot usage

It's not about home wireless usage, it's about wireless hotspots which are a whole different ball park than home internet use.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Audioboxer

[Emn1ty]

Your dad doesn't need internet access, period.

Obviously it's only imperative to those seeking internet use.

It isn't imperitive at all, because the console does not actually need to have internet access to run, regardless of what people want or don't want. There is nothing "required" about it. You are confusing personal need with actual functionality.

The possibility and practicality are closely linked.

Seeing as previously the possibility of me using wired was practically zero, as it was in no way practical.

Wired connections are not always an option, for a sensible arguments sake - Not just to argue the semantic of "hey anything is possible".

You are arguing improperly. It isn't a semantic, its a fact. You CAN use a wire, anywhere anytime as long as it is within 100ft, even if you don't have a router. Possibility is what can be done, practicality is measure of what works or not for you as an individual. Just because something isn't practical doesn't mean it is impossible. If anyone here is playing on words it is you with that second sentence, which makes no sense.

I can turn that argument and twist it on you, it's not a very well thought out remark "what you want is not what everyone wants".

I will enjoy watching you fail.

It's very true, but I never claimed what I wanted was what everyone wants. What I want is clearly only applicible to others who want to use wireless, shown by the backlash my opinions received by those with no interest in wireless.

But the way you argue is as if you think the majority does in fact use wireless, and you continue arguing as if that were the case when it isn't. We are arguing what the majority uses and you come back with, "But that isn't what I need, I need this so they should do it". Well the fact of the matter is Sony, Microsoft, EVER MAJOR COMPANY doesn't give a **** what joe minority wants, because the minority doesn't give them the most bang for their buck.

In one sense I wouldn't expect many of you to agree, but you're also taking your opinion of "wireless doesn't matter" and countering mine as if what you're also saying is what everyone wants.

That is because we have the experience and facts to back it up, you don't.

That comes as no surprise.

The USA has one of the most advanced broadband infrastructures and the largest population in the world (I believe).

That does not prove wireless is in a minority, to prove wireless is a minority you'd also need to see the statistics showing how many houses/people are in total connected to the internet - Then you could conduct the % of these houses on wired.

That study is a percentage of internet and wireless devices using wireless as apposed to wired. A percentage of ALL CONNECTIONS. As in 51% of US connections are wireless routers and/or mobile devices. How is that so hard to understand. You are the most diluted person ever since that does in fact prove wireless is a minority. And Japan actually has the most advanced broadband infrastructure, it the US with the most stable.

I do concede wired connections WILL outnumber wireless, but not in a way that makes wireless pointless, an afterthought, a gimmick, or something "general consumers" don't need/want.

I never said they were pointless and I never said they don't want it. What I said was that most people just don't care or don't know about it, let alone have it to begin with. And here you are contradicting yourself saying that wireless isn't proven as a minority but you think they are anyways...

[Guest]

Your dad doesn't need internet access, period.

Obviously it's only imperative to those seeking internet use.

For them it does affect the console.

Nice contradiction there. You've just spent the best part of 3 or 4 pages of this thread stating that wireless connectivity is a complete necessity in next gen consoles, and now it's only required for people who actually connect want to connect to the internet?! No ****!

That's why the 360 doesn't come with WiFi as standard, Gav. Not everybody needs it.

It isn't imperitive at all, because the console does not actually need to have internet access to run, regardless of what people want or don't want. There is nothing "required" about it. You are confusing personal need with actual functionality.

+1

[Ricardo Gil]

Yes because including Blu Ray in a TV is in-line with including wireless in a gaming console :blink:

Had to clarify that Ricardo, as your comments were most certainly aimed at me - And no I wasn't bitching about it, I just share a completely different viewpoint on

a) The importance of wireless

and

b) The balance between addon pricing and including such addons as default in more expensive models

It's not so much the analogy, but the principle behind it.

No one would like to be "forced" to buy something they don't need / already have if it means paying more for it. When I bought my PS3 I liked the idea of having a blu-ray player built-in, I found value in that, but no so much with the built-in WiFi because my router is like 10cm behind the PS3.

I will say that the 360's WiFi add-on is extremely overpriced (RRP that is), but still, it's a choice. One that makes the difference for the majority of gamers I guess.

So although I like the fact that MS gives us choice, I also hope for a (close) future where they stop being so greedy, and price add-ons more accordingly to reality.

If there's 18 million Live users, and 17 million PSN users, I'd say quite a lot of people use online capabilities.

I would divide those numbers by a factor of at least 3, multiple accounts FTW :D

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Nice contradiction there. You've just spent the best part of 3 or 4 pages of this thread stating that wireless connectivity is a complete necessity in next gen consoles, and now it's only required for people who actually connect want to connect to the internet?! No ****!

That's why the 360 doesn't come with WiFi as standard, Gav. Not everybody needs it.

With that argument then, not everyone needs ethernet.

The people who don't use internet don't need it either.

For those that do use internet wireless can be a necessity. I was in that position, and didn't want to pay for the overpriced add-on, I'd rather of paid for a premium top end console with everything. I mean, I wanted the elite in black, but I couldn't justify paying for it, then slapping another ?60 or so down immediately for a wireless add-on. That's not really choice, if wireless is a necessity for me - It's not like the hard drive where I can choose to upgrade later and play my games without DLC/demos for a while. I needed wireless day 1 to get online. Part of the massive appeal to buying a 360 is Live, no need to argue against that, look at how many Gold/Silver users there are.

Anyway, this has turned into a silly rumble, I ain't changing my opinion, none of you are changing yours, leave it at that. I really don't understand the massive backlash me thinking having wireless in the more expensive models is better bang for buck, is causing. Some of you are absolutely detesting it for some reason or another as if it would make any 360 it goes into cost 100's of more dollars and remove choice, where it wouldn't. Why aren't you arguing about USB ports/Component connections and other things you and others may not need in their 360s? It's getting a wee bit silly now, as I never talked about completely removing choice, but you guys keep hitting back at me as if I am.

I would like to have seen wireless in the more expensive 360s, that is all (maybe just the elite, leave the pro without?), I never said put it in the arcade - That's the model people who don't plan on using the internet are more likely to buy, as they probably won't even need a hard drive either. If they don't want internet, buy the cheapest model that plays games... that's the arcade.

You wouldn't be forced to buy anything, you'd still have your 3 models to choose from.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Audioboxer

[kyro]

i could not agree more with Sony , i took money to get GoW2 Xbox core edition (special box) they kept telling me i have to get everything else, (wifi , hdd, wireless controller, i mean everything) cost became same as ps3 and no blue-ray player too... BOOO, i got ps3 :D

[Ricardo Gil]

i could not agree more with Sony , i took money to get GoW2 Xbox core edition (special box) they kept telling me i have to get everything else, (wifi , hdd, wireless controller, i mean everything) cost became same as ps3 and no blue-ray player too... BOOO, i got ps3 :D

Who are "they"? The wireless controller comes in the box and if you really needed the hard drive then why buy the core model?

If you wanted EVERYTHING: Elite + WiFi. There.

[kyro]

i now realize that even after getting Elite i will still have to chug some out for Wifi , why call elite then? and yes , once i found if I have to have everything, then i will have to go with elite and that came at same cost as PS3 , Also proprietary HDD and no upgrade to replace that with laptop hard disk from market was BIGGEST turn off.

so counting all options i got PS3, no time for me going on more shopping after getting core.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

I'm so glad I ditched this topic for that metallica documentary now :rofl:

[Ricardo Gil]

i now realize that even after getting Elite i will still have to chug some out for Wifi , why call elite then? and yes , once i found if I have to have everything, then i will have to go with elite and that came at same cost as PS3 , Also proprietary HDD and no upgrade to replace that with laptop hard disk from market was BIGGEST turn off.

so counting all options i got PS3, no time for me going on more shopping after getting core.

So your biggest turn-off when choosing a console was lack of user upgradeable hard drives? I'd say 80/120GB drives are more than enough, and we're talking about a console here, not a file server.

I'd believe the DVD vs blu-ray scenario giving the edge over to the PS3, but the hard drive? Come on.

I'm so glad I ditched this topic for that metallica documentary now :rofl:

How's Lars?

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I'm so glad I ditched this topic for that metallica documentary now :rofl:

No you're not, you love watching me getting quadruple teamed whilst trying to hold up my "never-popular on Neowin opinion(s)".

I mean, where else around here do you get such in-depth discussions? As much as everyone hates me, I give members their moneys worth

Makes things a little more exiting than the seas of...

+1

I agree

Ect :p

I do genuinely hope everyone who talked to me over the last few pages understands it's just sparring over opinions, and when I walk away from my PC I don't hold grudges or care - Or else everything really is going to waste on here and ending in sad circumstances.

We really need a NW GH UK meetup to sort things out properly ;) Kushan has the right idea, but he expects everyone to go to Liverpool. What a noob.

[Guest]

A meetup sounds good, shall I bring my pitchfork? :laugh:

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

No you're not, you love watching me getting quadruple teamed whilst trying to hold up my "never-popular on Neowin opinion(s)".

I mean, where else around here do you get such in-depth discussions? As much as everyone hates me, I give members their moneys worth

We really need a NW GH UK meetup to sort things out properly ;) Kushan has the right idea, but he expects everyone to go to Liverpool. What a noob.

Now you know how I feel when I try propose something "different" in the Sony section, especially with some of the *ahem* "characters" we've had the last year in the GH ;)

There's no way I'm going to Liverpool, I don't want to be attacked by a barrage of moustaches, curly hair and track suits, no sir-ee! :p

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Now you know how I feel when I try propose something "different" in the Sony section, especially with some of the *ahem* "characters" we've had the last year in the GH ;)

There's no way I'm going to Liverpool, I don't want to be attacked by a barrage of moustaches, curly hair and track suits, no sir-ee! :p

Yes I do, but it's okay we all love each other. It's just a love-hate, but you can't deny the power of love :wub:

I believe, even the grimmest, hardest, cold-hearted Viking of Neowin, Sethos himself, has begun to take a turn for the better on me ;)

I'm just scared of the Liverpool accent, everyone sounds the same, even the girls sound like guys :p Steeeeeven Gerrrrrard.

[Guest]

If not Liverpool, Newcastle? :happy:

[red.]

I'm so glad I ditched this topic for that metallica documentary now :rofl:

More4?

[AbandonedTrolley]

Why not make the trip to London :D Less chance of getting robbed than Liverpool.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

More4?

Bingo!

@jonny, if what Jimmy Carr says is true, i.e if you have enough money for chips you'll pull, I'm game :rofl:

I've heard some nasty stories about Newcastle from my bro though lol.

[kyro]

I'd believe the DVD vs blu-ray scenario giving the edge over to the PS3, but the hard drive? Come on.

Well, i have huge movie collection on my laptops 250gb hard disk, i was thinking to put this hard disk on Gaming console as they also double up as Media players . i found out not only is the hard disk Xbox specific only and cant be replaced by normal hard disks but also for what i would get 20gb or 40gb Xbox hard disk , same price gives me 250+gb laptop hard disk ( i learned this later regarding price BTW) so it was deal killer, another thing that totally bamboozled me was Xbox still thinks people will start pulling ethernet wires around home for internet/net related activities and does not gives them on any version, and wifi adaptor is insanely priced.

PS3 was natural selection then.

(BTW I still havent mentioned how PS3 lets you install Linux too but i didnt even think about it and havent yet done that thing)

[Guest]

@jonny, if what Jimmy Carr says is true, i.e if you have enough money for chips you'll pull, I'm game :rofl:

I've heard some nasty stories about Newcastle from my bro though lol.

It can be a nasty, nasty place if you don't know where you're going. There's some really nice bars and clubs, but there's some areas I've always steered well clear of.

And about the chips, that's pretty much true :laugh: