Girl Gets Flu Shot - Now She Can Only Walk Backwards

[Fred Derf Veteran]

You have essentialy proven my point. I am far more likely to drop dea from either of those. Should I go get all the cancer treatments on the off chance I have cancer? Maybe the doc should put me on blood pressure meds on teh off chance I get high blood pressure. No, so why get a vaccine for something you're probably not even going to get and if you did you'd recover from anyway. It's retarded.

That was your point? If vaccines existed for those diseases then I'd get them but they don't. Receiving treatments for diseases that you do not have would be silly. There is a difference between vaccines and treatments. Vaccines train your body to fight a virus to the point where you probably won't know if you were ever exposed.

[O.G]

That was your point? If vaccines existed for those diseases then I'd get them but they don't. Receiving treatments for diseases that you do not have would be silly. There is a difference between vaccines and treatments. Vaccines train your body to fight a virus to the point where you probably won't know if you were ever exposed.

That makes an assumption that people are unable to fight the disease off using their own immune system, which is franky an absurd suggestion and many many many have, in fact far in excess of those who have died, and all despite not being vaccinated. So again, what is the point in an otherwise healthy individual being vaccinated?

[chrisj1968]

If it is psychogenic then the flu shot would have only been the trigger and not the actual cause. As I said before though, it doesn't really matter because rare adverse reactions to the flu shot do actually happen. I'd be inclined to accept her at her word.

Thiomersal (INN) (C9H9HgNaO2S), or sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate, commonly known in the United States as thimerosal, is an organomercury compound (approximately 49% mercury by weight) used as an antiseptic and antifungal agent.

It was invented and patented by Morris Kharasch. The pharmaceutical corporation Eli Lilly and Company gave it the trade name Merthiolate and it has been used as a preservative in vaccines, immunoglobulin preparations, skin test antigens, antivenins, ophthalmic and nasal products, and tattoo inks. The compound is being phased out from routine childhood vaccines in the United States, the European Union, and a few other countries.[1]

Thiomersal's main use is as an antiseptic and antifungal agent. In multidose injectable drug delivery systems, it prevents serious adverse effects such as the Staphylococcus infection that, in one 1928 incident, killed 12 of 21 children inoculated with a diphtheria vaccine that lacked a preservative.[2] Unlike other vaccine preservatives used at the time, thiomersal does not reduce the potency of the vaccines that it protects.[3] Bacteriostatics like thiomersal are not needed in more-expensive single-dose injectables.[4]

In the United States, countries in the European Union and a few other affluent countries, thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood vaccination schedules.[1] In the U.S., the only exceptions among vaccines routinely recommended for children are some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older than two years.[5] Several vaccines that are not routinely recommended for young children do contain thiomersal, including DT (diphtheria and tetanus), Td (tetanus and diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid); other vaccines may contain a trace of thiomersal from steps in manufacture

Thimerosal-

Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[8] In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.[2]

Few studies of the toxicity of thiomersal in humans have been performed. Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign. Similar signs and symptoms have been observed in accidental human poisonings. The mechanisms of toxic action are unknown. Fecal excretion accounts for most of the elimination from the body. Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-time of about 18 days, and from the brain in about 14 days. Inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer clearance, at least 120 days; it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons not yet understood.[9]

Risk assessment for effects on the nervous system have been made by extrapolating from dose-response relationships for methylmercury.[9] Methylmercury and ethylmercury distributes to all body tissues, crossing the blood-brain barrier and the placental barrier, and ethylmercury also moves freely throughout the body.[10] Concerns based on extrapolations from methylmercury caused thiomersal to be removed from U.S. childhood vaccines, starting in 1999. Since then, it has been found that ethylmercury is cleared from the body and the brain significantly faster than methylmercury, so the late-1990s risk assessments turned out to be overly conservative.[9] A 2008 study found that the half-life of blood mercury after vaccination averages 3.7 days for newborns and infants, much shorter than the 44 days for methylmercury.

Thimerosal

[iamawesomewicked]

That makes an assumption that people are unable to fight the disease off using their own immune system, which is franky an absurd suggestion and many many many have, in fact far in excess of those who have died, and all despite not being vaccinated. So again, what is the point in an otherwise healthy individual being vaccinated?

Lets see how you fight off cancer without Chemo.

[soldier1st]

More S*x is what she needs to feel better as she looks hot.

[acnpt]

There already is a seasonal flu vaccine, which is given to those with health problems and OAPs.

This swine seems to affecting the younger people most with underlaying health problems, more than any other group.

I wouldn't get the vaccine myself if it were to be available tomorrow, however if the cases of Swine flu do increase over the winter then I will consider it.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

That makes an assumption that people are unable to fight the disease off using their own immune system, which is franky an absurd suggestion and many many many have, in fact far in excess of those who have died, and all despite not being vaccinated. So again, what is the point in an otherwise healthy individual being vaccinated?

If you get exposed to the virus after you've been vaccinated then you will likely never come down with symptoms and you will likely never know that you did come into contact. You won't sneeze and cough over your friends, relatives and co-workers and the virus will have less of a chance to mutate while in your system.

I have explained all of this before. I also said that if you were only concerned with your own self and you know that you have no other conditions then it would be best for you to skip the flu shot (either the seasonal, the H1N1 or both). People who do get the vaccine are likely concerned with friends, relatives and co-workers or they care about their community in general.

[O.G]

Receiving treatments for diseases that you do not have would be silly. There is a difference between vaccines and treatments.

There is very little difference in this case. The flu vaccine is the treatment, usualy pre-emptive but a treatment none the less. But at least you agree that its silly for a healthy person to receive "treatment".

[Fred Derf Veteran]

...

Thimerosal- Thimerosal

So when it comes down to it, don't get a flu shot more often than once every 18 days and don't eat a lot of fish either.

Okay, no problem.

I'd worry a lot more about crossing the street or getting into a vehicle.

There is very little difference in this case. The flu vaccine is the treatment, usualy pre-emptive but a treatment none the less. But at least you agree that its silly for a healthy person to receive "treatment".

Vaccines are not treatment. Vaccines train the body's white blood cells. Chemotherapy does not do this. It's an inept comparison to say the least.

[O.G]

So when it comes down to it, don't get a flu shot more often than once every 18 days and don't eat a lot of fish either.

Vaccines are not treatment. Vaccines train the body's white blood cells. Chemotherapy does not do this. It's an inept comparison to say the least.

Most people are perfectly capable of training their own immune system without any help. However, should they have the vaccine and the strain changes, their body will be too busy producing antibodies for the last strain, that a vaccine for the new strain won't help them in the slightest. Even wiki's tightly monitored Influenza Vaccine page states;

Clinical trials of vaccines

In adults, vaccines show high efficacy against the targeted strains, but low effectiveness overall, so the benefits of vaccination are small...

In children, vaccines again showed high efficacy, but low effectiveness in preventing "flu-like illness", in children under two the data are extremely limited, but vaccination appeared to confer no measurable benefit...

In the elderly, vaccination does not reduce the frequency of influenza, but seems to reduce pneumonia, hospital admission and deaths from influenza or pneumonia...

Overall, the benefit of influenza vaccination is clear in the elderly and vaccination of children may be beneficial. Vaccination of adults is not predicted to produce significant improvements in public health. The apparent contradiction between vaccines with high efficacy, but low effectiveness, may reflect the difficulty in diagnosing influenza under clinical conditions and the large number of strains circulating in the population

You can read it for yourself, and the associated references. So, if it is as you said, and the swine flu vaccine will be as useful as the seasonal flu, I'd say that ain't a whole hell of a lot. So again, why should a perfectly healthy person receive the vaccine?

Edited October 25, 2009 by O.G

[Kirkburn]

There is zero social benefit to mass flu vaccination, and to say otherwise is a bold face lie.

That's one hell of a statement.

So I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity is fiction?

Yes, it's not amazingly effective, but it's silly to say it has "zero" benefit.

[O.G]

Ok, again since you couldn't read my last post

Vaccination of adults is not predicted to produce significant improvements in public health.

Battle of the wiki articles.

Influenza Vaccine - Wiki

To add;

Since the A/Brisbane/59/2007 (H1N1)-like virus used in the vaccine is an unrelated seasonal strain of influenza, it probably cannot create immunity to the new, non-seasonal strain of influenza A virus subtype H1N1 responsible for the 2009 swine flu outbreak

So the 2009-2010 seasonal vaccines will/has offered no protection, and everyone who has had it and not died did so without any help from a vaccine. Those who took a seasonal vaccine thinking it would help were wrong.

Edited October 25, 2009 by O.G

[Lord Ba'al]

How disturbing... I really feel for the poor girl :(

These flu shots are only provided so the pharmaceutical indutry can make a quick and big buck :x

The whole hysteria around the flu shot is just artificially created, to get more people to take flu shots, so they make more money from them.

It's just the same thing as with the "terror" phantom, which was also blown way out of proportion just so they can take the citizen's rights away :crazy:

[zhangm Supervisor]

The point of vaccination is not to protect individuals in a direct sense. The point is to deprive a specific strain, identified as a particular hazard, of its pool of potential hosts. This makes the disease spread much more slowly, or, if a large-enough portion of the population is vaccinated, the virus can't spread at all, and it dies off.

It is true that normal healthy adults can fight off most flu infections without permanent damage, but if you're actually capable of looking beyond your own interests, the cost of a viral infection is more than a few days of discomfort. Your body is used by the virus to replicate and spread, and it is the dissemination of disease that leverages the primary cost on society.

Thiomersal (INN) (C9H9HgNaO2S), or sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate, commonly known in the United States as thimerosal, is an organomercury compound (approximately 49% mercury by weight) used as an antiseptic and antifungal agent.

Yeah, are you trying to make a point with that emphasis? Water is 90% oxygen by weight - that doesn't make it practically breathable.

[master2k27]

The point of vaccination is not to protect individuals in a direct sense. The point is to deprive a specific strain, identified as a particular hazard, of its pool of potential hosts. This makes the disease spread much more slowly, or, if a large-enough portion of the population is vaccinated, the virus can't spread at all, and it dies off.

It is true that normal healthy adults can fight off most flu infections without permanent damage, but if you're actually capable of looking beyond your own interests, the cost of a viral infection is more than a few days of discomfort. Your body is used by the virus to replicate and spread, and it is the dissemination of disease that leverages the primary cost on society.

Yeah, are you trying to make a point with that emphasis? Water is 90% oxygen by weight - that doesn't make it practically breathable.

true

[Joe User]

How disturbing... I really feel for the poor girl :(

These flu shots are only provided so the pharmaceutical indutry can make a quick and big buck :x

The whole hysteria around the flu shot is just artificially created, to get more people to take flu shots, so they make more money from them.

It's just the same thing as with the "terror" phantom, which was also blown way out of proportion just so they can take the citizen's rights away :crazy:

"You know another really good invention? Tiny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green, fire engine red.... really! The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for 6 months which is why these companies think they can gouge you! They think that you'l pay anyhting to protect your kid. Want to make a point? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they would rather let their kid die than cough up $40 for a vaccination, trust me, prices will drop really, really fast."

Yes, it's a quote from House, MD, I think it applies here.

Not vaccinating children (or any other person considered at risk) against a potentially deadly virus is idiotic.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Most people are perfectly capable of training their own immune system without any help. However, should they have the vaccine and the strain changes, their body will be too busy producing antibodies for the last strain, that a vaccine for the new strain won't help them in the slightest. Even wiki's tightly monitored Influenza Vaccine page states;

In adults, vaccines show high efficacy against the targeted strains, but low effectiveness overall, so the benefits of vaccination are small...

You can read it for yourself, and the associated references. So, if it is as you said, and the swine flu vaccine will be as useful as the seasonal flu, I'd say that ain't a whole hell of a lot. So again, why should a perfectly healthy person receive the vaccine?

You are grasping at two different concepts and trying to pull them together but it doesn't work.

The benefits of seasonal vaccinations are small because it is highly dependent on the experts choosing the correct strains to immunize against. Vaccines are highly efficacious on the targeted strains themselves ("vaccines show high efficacy against the targeted strains"). This claim of low effectiveness overall is based on the assumption they they won't pick the right strains or that other strains will fill in the gaps. Still, one has to remember that these benefits are compared to doing nothing.

Now, if you are trying to tie this logic to H1N1 then it all breaks down. Since vaccines show "high efficacy against the targeted strains" then the H1N1 vaccine can be expected to be highly efficient leading to a much greater overall/community effectiveness relative to the seasonal flu vaccine. And that is just all the more reason to get the H1N1 vaccine.

The answer to your last question is the same as it always has been. Healthy people should get it to protect the people they care about. If you don't care about anyone else then by all means don't take it but it makes no sense to tell others not to get it unless you simply wish to justify your own decision.

[mokthraka]

you know when I read the crazy conspicy theriors about the swineflu vaccine it really really reminds me of the book Rainbow Six

[DrunkenMaster]

I've had a few seizures before about 10 years ago (was about 20). I don't think I'm epileptic anymore. I've no permanent damage luckily. I've also had the flu vaccine well before and after - I know it didn't cause it. Still there's some serious and rare side effects from the vaccines. Trust me, one seizure is one too many .... and they hurt like a ...... It can completely debilitate you. I'm normal now - I, ironically am able to run marathons. I'm training for more too.

I just feel the H1N1 vaccine was rushed to market, I'll let the other 20+ million Canadians that feel like taking it as guinea pigs for the rest of the population. I'm NOT TAKING IT EVER. If there's a couple million dropping like flies, then I'll reconsider. After working breifly in a few gov't agencies (Health Canada included) - there's no way in hell this vaccine could have been approved unless there's some conflict of interest. IMO the Avian flu had a higher mortalitly rate and possibility of spread of infection.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

I've had a few seizures before about 10 years ago (was about 20). I don't think I'm epileptic anymore. I've no permanent damage luckily. I've also had the flu vaccine well before and after - I know it didn't cause it. Still there's some serious and rare side effects from the vaccines. Trust me, one seizure is one too many .... and they hurt like a ...... It can completely debilitate you. I'm normal now - I, ironically am able to run marathons. I'm training for more too.

I just feel the H1N1 vaccine was rushed to market, I'll let the other 20+ million Canadians that feel like taking it as guinea pigs for the rest of the population. I'm NOT TAKING IT EVER. If there's a couple million dropping like flies, then I'll reconsider. After working breifly in a few gov't agencies (Health Canada included) - there's no way in hell this vaccine could have been approved unless there's some conflict of interest. IMO the Avian flu had a higher mortalitly rate and possibility of spread of infection.

The avian flu of the last decade was never transmitted from human to human.

If you consider that the H1N1 flu vaccine is otherwise identical to the seasonal flu vaccine then it is one of the most tested vaccines ever. Every year they have to tweak the vaccine for specific strains and the H1N1 vaccine is the regular flu vaccine tweaked for H1N1.

[Lord Ba'al]

Not vaccinating children (or any other person considered at risk) against a potentially deadly virus is idiotic.

I was talking about the general populace here, not risk groups. For risk groups (like small children) it may still make sense, but creating fear to get as many ordinary people as possible to take it even though they don't really need it is just an attempt to make quick money.

The side effects which can crop up from it being obviously poorly tested is another reason against it.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

The side effects which can crop up from it being obviously poorly tested is another reason against it.

Luckily the H1N1 flu vaccine is one of the most heavily tested vaccines ever. It's the same vaccine we use every year for the seasonal flu only it has been tweaked for H1N1. The seasonal flu needs to be tweaked each and every year in a similar fashion so this is nothing new.

[mokthraka]

should someone who is 16 get it you think?

I mean I have never got a flu shot before. and im fine

[Fred Derf Veteran]

should someone who is 16 get it you think?

I mean I have never got a flu shot before. and im fine

It depends on what people you come into contact with. The protection offered from the vaccine will help the high-risk people you come in contact with even more than yourself. Of course, you may just want to make sure that you don't end up sick in bed for a few days so it can also be a convenience thing.

[mokthraka]

It depends on what people you come into contact with. The protection offered from the vaccine will help the high-risk people you come in contact with even more than yourself. Of course, you may just want to make sure that you don't end up sick in bed for a few days so it can also be a convenience thing.

I dont really come into high risk people. just people at school. I mean we have a place where there are babys but im never in there so i dont think that matters.

dont really mind much if im in bed for a few days.