WWDC '08

By osirisX
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Grand Master

Hurmoth

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Steve is well known to get caught up when doing his Keynotes and start going so far off script it gives his engineers heart attacks. ;)

I know I just got an email about the entire 'Clone' market possibilities and how it would hurt Apple from the Hardware Company aspect so I think that it is still seen that Apple is a Hardware company. I'll look around for that quote, have a teleconference meeting here in a few minutes so...

I can certainly understand that. One thing that I've always admired Jobs for is his passion for his company's products. So in the heat of the moment, going off script is something he just naturally does.

Okay I agree with Cara here but Matt's point isn't that apple is 50% hardware and 50% hardware; it's definitely focused on hardware. But Matt, what Cara is saying is that that primary focus defines the company as a hardware producer. Would you say Nokia and Motorola are also software companies? Although they write (and commission to write) most of the software seen on many of their mobile phones, they are still, at heart, hardware companies. I think Apple is similar: a hardware company that ALSO produces software.

I don't think you can compare Nokia/Motorola and Apple. Apple has software that you can go out to a store and purchase. You can go out and buy Nokia or Motorola software. In fact, outside of the software on their devices, do they make anything else software-wise?

Apple makes iTunes for Windows, Nokia doesn't make software that you can download for a Motorola phone do they? Or RIM doesn't make software for a Nokia phone. These are apples and oranges.

As for Apple though, I can understand your point simply because you can't really go out of buy Mac OS X for a PC that you build.

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Grand Master

Mathachew Veteran

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Okay I agree with Cara here but Matt's point isn't that apple is 50% hardware and 50% hardware; it's definitely focused on hardware. But Matt, what Cara is saying is that that primary focus defines the company as a hardware producer. Would you say Nokia and Motorola are also software companies? Although they write (and commission to write) most of the software seen on many of their mobile phones, they are still, at heart, hardware companies. I think Apple is similar: a hardware company that ALSO produces software.

I completely understand what Cara was saying. In the case of Nokie or Motorola, it's limited software so that their products function, but they're nothing to the scale of what Apple produces for their OS. Apple couldn't survive without either, unless drastic steps are taken. They have had a better chance of surviving as only a hardware company because their systems now support Windows; rewind to before they moved to Intel chips, and that wasn't the case.

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Hurmoth

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I completely understand what Cara was saying. In the case of Nokie or Motorola, it's limited software so that their products function, but they're nothing to the scale of what Apple produces for their OS. Apple couldn't survive without either, unless drastic steps are taken. They have had a better chance of surviving as only a hardware company because their systems now support Windows; rewind to before they moved to Intel chips, and that wasn't the case.

I disagree, not with the way they charge. They'd have to drastically reduce the cost of their systems to stay competitive with Dell if they stopped making OS X and started selling Windows or Linux on their system.

They would have a much better chance of being a software company that licensed their OS to Dell for use on their systems. I'm sure a ton of people who can't afford a Mac would purchase a copy of Mac OS X for their own personal system in a heart beat. I know I would.

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Grand Master

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I disagree, not with the way they charge. They'd have to drastically reduce the cost of their systems to stay competitive with Dell if they stopped making OS X and started selling Windows or Linux on their system.

They would have a much better chance of being a software company that licensed their OS to Dell for use on their systems. I'm sure a ton of people who can't afford a Mac would purchase a copy of Mac OS X for their own personal system in a heart beat. I know I would.

My point on their survival due to support for Windows, or lack thereof, didn't correlate with the cost. I agree that the cost would have to come down a lot, but because their system is capable of running Windows, the chances are improved greatly if you ask me. People are willing to spend more money on premium hardware, but having their own OS to run on it definitely helps. Reduced hardware prices or opening OSX would make their survivability without one of the two far greater, but I don't see them going that route, nor do they have a reason to.

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Grand Master

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As long as their #'s keep going up like they have been since they introduced the Intel version, it isn't likely that they'll open either up. Personally, I love my iMac and would trade it for any Windows computer in the world.

You mean wouldn't, right? :p

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Grand Master

Quillz

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As long as their #'s keep going up like they have been since they introduced the Intel version, it isn't likely that they'll open either up. Personally, I love my iMac and would trade it for any Windows computer in the world.

An iMac is a Windows computer... *runs and hides*

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Grand Master

Hurmoth

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Steve Jobs to Give Keynote at WWDC on June 9th

Fortune's Apple 2.0 blog received confirmation from Apple's public relations that Steve Jobs would be delivering the keynote speech at Apple's Wordwide Developer's Conference on Monday, June 9th.

Although no official announcement has been made, Apple public relations confirmed to Fortune that Steve Jobs will deliver a keynote address on June 9, the first day of the 2008 World Wide Developers conference.

Of course, it's no surprise that Steve Jobs will be delivering the keynote speech at WWDC, but it had not been formally announced or scheduled. Apple, of course, is widely expected to deliver the next version of the iPhone at WWDC.

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Grand Master

Quillz

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Depends on which one we're talking about. I have a G5 as well as the Intel one :p

And they can't run Windows without Boot Camp ;)

But the point is they can still run Windows, thus a "Windows computer" is basically any generic x86 platform out there, whether it's from Apple or Dell.

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dyn

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Not trying to convince you of anything, simply stating a fact. :)

Apple's software team is a supporting aspect of the Apple Hardware Team.

I'll say it one more time then I'm done attempting to explain it here, the fact is Apple is a Hardware Company with a great Software Product, not a Hardware/Software company.

Just to support it, a quick Google Revealed the 2006 PC Magazine Company Awards...

As Steve Jobs said: Apple is a software company. However they do make their own hardware. Steve Jobs had this nice quote from somebody (it was fullscreen in one of his keynotes) stating something like that if a company wants to make really good software it has to make it's own hardware as well.

Edited by dyn
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Experienced

Aperture

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As Steve Jobs said: Apple is a software company. However they do make their own hardware. Steve Jobs had this nice quote from somebody (it was fullscreen in one of his keynotes) stating something like that if a company wants to make really good software it has to make it's own hardware as well.

Yeah I'd trust more what came from the horses mouth than a low-level Apple employee who spends a majority of her time posting on Neowin.

That said, I'm on a personal assumption that Apple could not produce one without the other, so no matter what they consider themselves as, I consider them as a business minded innovations company who deal with both hardware and software to produce the best available products on the market today.

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Grand Master

Cara Veteran

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Yeah I'd trust more what came from the horses mouth than a low-level Apple employee who spends a majority of her time posting on Neowin.

That said, I'm on a personal assumption that Apple could not produce one without the other, so no matter what they consider themselves as, I consider them as a business minded innovations company who deal with both hardware and software to produce the best available products on the market today.

Wow, personal dig, nice. Made me laugh pretty hard though. If you only knew. ;) Stick to what you know, which isn't me, so you can avoid making future assumptions that will simply make you look foolish. :)

Anyhow, you are correct (for the first time this post) in saying Apple couldn't sustain it's business on one or the other when it comes to Hardware / Software. Both elements come together to produce the technology and innovation that you all come to expect from Apple.

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dyn

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Yeah I'd trust more what came from the horses mouth than a low-level Apple employee who spends a majority of her time posting on Neowin.

Someone people still seem to think that everybody on the internet speaks the truth... There is no way to check if what you say is true. However...Steve Job gave this keynote which had the phrase I'm referring to in size 48 or even bigger fullscreen on the screen. That is something you and everyone else is able to check. I'd rather believe something I can actually verify than something someone types on the net which I can't or can hardly verify, especially when they claim they are an employee from company X, because mostly that is false.

It is also known that low level employees know hardly anything about what the company is doing and where it's going. That is on an entirely different level in management (more strategic, maybe even tactical; low level employees are far below those levels).

That said, I'm on a personal assumption that Apple could not produce one without the other, so no matter what they consider themselves as, I consider them as a business minded innovations company who deal with both hardware and software to produce the best available products on the market today.

I also couldn't care less but it's what Steve Jobs showed in one of his keynotes so if the big boss says they are a software company than that's probably true. I just buy their products if I think it's worth buying.

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Aperture

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Someone people still seem to think that everybody on the internet speaks the truth... There is no way to check if what you say is true. However...Steve Job gave this keynote which had the phrase I'm referring to in size 48 or even bigger fullscreen on the screen. That is something you and everyone else is able to check. I'd rather believe something I can actually verify than something someone types on the net which I can't or can hardly verify, especially when they claim they are an employee from company X, because mostly that is false.

It is also known that low level employees know hardly anything about what the company is doing and where it's going. That is on an entirely different level in management (more strategic, maybe even tactical; low level employees are far below those levels).

I also couldn't care less but it's what Steve Jobs showed in one of his keynotes so if the big boss says they are a software company than that's probably true. I just buy their products if I think it's worth buying.

Yeah that's the exact stance I have on the subject, whether someone gets hairy fairy on me or not.

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Grand Master

Cara Veteran

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Well, annoying personal attacks not withstanding I did want to post my findings on the Hardware / Software question.

It appears I was wrong, I sent a letter to the man himself (Which doubt if you want but here it is) and was informed that Apple is indeed either a Software or Technology company, depending on how you look at it.

Here is the chain, enjoy it if you'd like, those in tin-foil hats can insult it if they'd like, but I'd ask you please do it in private to me as not to take the thread further off-topic.

Oh, just for the record I got this on Tuesday I just hadn't thought about posting it until I was cleaning out my email tonight. Headers, email, and phone numbers, and compromising data removed for privacy of course.

There is no simple answer to this anymore. Previously, Apple was a hardware company but we have grown far beyond that simple label now. In the keynote you asked about I did say Apple was a software company but I think that was not a very fair statement anymore. I view Apple as a technology company now so you can say that we are both or neither of those previous things.

Thanks for the good question, it gave me something to think about.

Steve

On May 12, 2008, at 5:25 PM, XXXX wrote:

Steve,

I know you're a very busy person so I had to think long and hard about sending this to you but I have a burning curiosity that needs to be taken care of! If you have free time at some point to respond, that would be great, if not I understand as well. If it is easier on you, you can also call me at XXXXX or XXX-XXX-XXXX, the second is my iPhone so I have it at all times.

Recently I was discussing Apple with some people I know and there was a bit of a debate on how Apple should be classified, Software or Hardware Company. I said that Apple is a Hardware Company as it's been drilled into our heads over the years, however was countered with one of your keynotes in which you said Apple was a Software Company. When I view Apple I see our software products, namely Mac OS, however you can't help but notice the excess of hardware that makes up our product lineup. The number of hardware products and configurations offered seem to outweigh the software applications we sell.

Can you put this debate to a close for me, and if you say hardware company you'll win me a bet so... ;)

Thanks for your time!

XXXX

Sr. Project Manager, Design & Deployment

XXX.XXX.XXXX Phone / XXX.XXX.XXXX Fax / XXX.XXX.XXXX iPhone

I hate being wrong. heh.

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Grand Master

Mathachew Veteran

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HA! I KNEW IT!!!11

Ok, I'm done gloating ;) I think saying they're a Technology company better suits them more than saying Hardware, Software and Fashion company :p Case closed.

On a side note, perhaps this should be listed on digg? Nahh, I wouldn't want Neowin to crash again :shiftyninja:

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Experienced

thefarewellnote

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Well, annoying personal attacks not withstanding I did want to post my findings on the Hardware / Software question.

It appears I was wrong, I sent a letter to the man himself (Which doubt if you want but here it is) and was informed that Apple is indeed either a Software or Technology company, depending on how you look at it.

Here is the chain, enjoy it if you'd like, those in tin-foil hats can insult it if they'd like, but I'd ask you please do it in private to me as not to take the thread further off-topic.

Oh, just for the record I got this on Tuesday I just hadn't thought about posting it until I was cleaning out my email tonight. Headers, email, and phone numbers, and compromising data removed for privacy of course.

I hate being wrong. heh.

Props to Steve for responding though. The man constantly seems to impress me.

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As I have said in previous reviews, TerraMaster support staff actually encourage installing whatever you want on their devices, and happily, the USB port for the bootloader is now easily accessible should you want to use it for your own flavor of NAS OS, such as TrueNAS, Unraid, or maybe Xpenology. Yes, because TerraMaster has now switched to a 256 GB NAND Flash card (3rd photo above) for the TOS bootloader. This is also replaceable, but you can also simply add a USB bootloader, access the BIOS, and tell the F4-425 Pro to boot from that instead of the Flash card. Unlike earlier iterations of TerraMaster NAS, you don't have to tear this down any further than the four screws on the outer shell in order to be able to access and manage the memory, NVMe slots, and USB bootloader. However, if you need to access the NAND Flash card or CMOS battery, then eight more screws (four on each side) need to be removed in order to take off the rear panel with the 120mm fan, and then the motherboard can be lifted off and removed from the SATA connector PCB. There's also no risk of threading the screw holes, because the four that hold the shell in place are metal on metal, while the screws that hold the rear panel on do screw into plastic. Either way, like last time when I reviewed the F4-425 plus, I was just happier to see larger screws being used. Overall, it follows some great improvements in build quality from the 2024 series and earlier. Setup BIOS The F4-425 Pro includes an Aptio BIOS from American Megatrends [1, 2], and you can setup pretty much everything here including the boot order, which is locked to the UEFI OS, however above that choice you can enable or disable booting to the USB bootloader so this would still allow you to switch to a USB stick with an alternative bootloader and boot from it, or disable it to instead always start from the first disk with an OS installed on it. Initial Setup Setup is roughly the same as the F4-425 Plus, along with the new TOS 7 setup dialogs, so there will be no surprises here. Upon connecting to the LAN and booting up, the F4-425 Pro can be reached by navigating to http://tnas.local. If that doesn't work, you can use the local address assigned via DHCP, which you can find using the TNAS PC desktop application, which is essentially a TerraMaster NAS finder. The setup process is pretty straightforward, through a wizard, and in full below: TOS 7 Initialization As you can see, TOS 7 received a new coat of paint, and the initialization requires fewer interactions. Happily, TOS no longer decides to throw all disks into the same Storage Pool; 2.5-inch HDDs are allocated into Storage Pool 1. This is because two of the HDDs are allocated to hold system files. Previously (with TOS 5 and 6), if you pre-installed HDDs and SSDs, they were all placed into Storage Pool 1, even if you did not select the SSDs for inclusion during the onboarding. TOS 7 Setup On first boot, there is a tutorial and some steps to take to harden the TNAS (or not), which includes an immediate update from TOS 7.0.0616 to 7.0.0706, of which the changelog screenshot is also included in the above gallery. It must be noted that the Security Advisor still contains (in my opinion) a pretty major bug in that if you enable SPC and then do the required rebooting, the Security Advisor still says that SPC is disabled. TerraMaster provided the following statement about it: It is disappointing that TOS 7 has been in beta since December, and this OOBE issue is still there. Shutdown option has moved Instead of a Taskbar option to manage the NAS, all of these options have been moved to a "Start panel", initially I didn't see it and my contact had to show me how to power off the F4-425 Pro. To logout, reboot or power off you can find those controls at the top right of the Panel. It is also possible to power off through the TNAS mobile app beta. Storage setup Above, you can see the steps I took to create the Storage Pools and Volumes. I made a second Storage Pool using TRAID on two 4TB MP44Q SSDs (which, in this instance, is similar to RAID 5), and finally, I added the 250GB 970 Evo Plus drive as Hyper Cache on Storage Pool 1 in Balanced mode. Registering If you decide not to lock down the F4-425 Pro in Security Isolation Mode (blocking all external connections), then you could set up a TNAS device ID through the Remote Access setting in the Control Panel (which must be unique). This works in combination with an online TerraMaster account. TOS 7 TNAS Online Creating a TerraMaster account and linking the device online activates the warranty when you provide proof of purchase and the serial number, but it also gives you access through the TNAS mobile app, which allows you to complete certain operationsб including powering off and restarting the NAS remotely. A TNAS mobile update is required to gain access through TOS 7, and this is provided on the TerraMaster website, as it is not yet on Google Play. The app is evolving all the time and has made leaps and bounds since I first started reviewing TerraMaster devices almost three years ago. It is not quite there yet if you are comparing the likes of Synology, which, sadly, a lot of users online do all the time. OpenClaw setup One of the main selling points of the new F4-425 Pro is the inclusion of OpenClaw, with TerraMaster claiming that it is "powered by the world's first AI-native TOS 7 OS, supporting local-first smart workflows and independent data control." However, I immediately ran into problems trying to enable OpenClaw. After waiting 20 minutes at the "Enabling" message of the OpenClaw app following installation, I decided to do some searching online and discovered that it couldn't complete the installation process due to SPC being enabled, which is something TOS 7 immediately recommends to be enabled on first boot. SPC for NAS (TOS 7) is basically the same principle as UAC in Windows; it blocks executables from being launched by non-Super Users. After reaching out to my contact about these issues, I received the following response: Anyway, this only became clear when I closed the OpenClaw app screen and clicked on the OpenClaw icon in the taskbar; that is when I saw the message about disabling SPC. I think, due to the fact that this is a requirement, this should be a prompt during the installation process, not when closing the App Market and then trying to launch OpenClaw. There's also no 'Getting started' guide for people like me who have never used OpenClaw. I tried to add an LLM and discovered the tutorial led nowhere. That's when I started looking around the official TerraMaster forums, and I found a guide that helpfully explains that you won't get anywhere with OpenClaw unless you have a paid plan, which is disappointing because I imagined there would be an option to use a local LLM as I do in SubtitleEdit with Whisper-XXL. In addition, with the marketing imagery on the official site, it says that the OpenClaw feature is "all processed 100% locally for absolute privacy." which led me to believe that I could install a local LLM, not one that required paid tokens. In any case, TerraMaster does not provide guidance for this new feature, which was also a selling point of the F4-425 Pro! My contact also provided clarification about the above points I raised with TerraMaster Since it is not in the scope of the review to add paid services, I'll leave that to the people who are more qualified with OpenClaw. F4-425 Pro Surveillance App TOS also comes with a Surveillance app, which is not installed by default; it can be found in the App Market recommended section. In addition, after installing, it doesn't drop a shortcut on the Desktop or top taskbar, but you can "Send to Desktop" from the App Market listing for the app for a quick way to open it. Adding my Reolink POE doorbell camera was painless. TerraMaster doesn't appear to have a repository of preconfigured cameras; instead, the camera must be added using ONVIF or RTSP. No mobile Surveillance app TerraMaster still doesn't have a dedicated Surveillance app, although from searching online, Surveillance can be used and managed through the TNAS mobile app. I tried this with the updated TNAS mobile app beta in combination with TOS 7 and got a message that Surveillance was "Only accessible through web browser," so I reckon this must be limited to the stable versions of TOS 6 and the mobile app. More quirks In addition, whenever I minimized the Live View window in the browser Surveillance app, the feed appeared to switch to the Low-bandwidth stream, and there was no way to get the High-quality stream back. To get the High-quality stream back, I had to close Live View and then reopen it. Benchmarking A pretty cool feature of the TOS 7 is that it allows you to install directly to the NVMe M.2 SSD. In order to do that, you would have to leave out any HDDs during initialization, and even then, the system partitions are always written to two HDDs when they are eventually added. With three NVMe slots, this also gives an interesting scenario where you could build a TRAID storage Pool for installing all your apps and Docker on, and keep the third for SSD cache on the HDD pool. Limitless options! SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 A CrystalDiskMark test on a mapped network drive from within a Windows 11 25H2 PC (image above) connected over a 5 GbE hub was well within acceptable ranges. Although the read result on SATA was a little less than with the F4-425 Plus, for some reason, while writes were generally better. SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 I also ran the NAS Performance tester, which tests the link speed performance. As you can see, it pretty much maxes out the 5GbE connection. Of course, you can also opt to bond the two 5 GbE connections for a bit more umph, but I didn't do that. TOS 7, which, as of testing, is still in Beta, comes with an App Center that has a bunch of handy programs you can install right off the bat, such as Emby, Plex, Docker, as well as in-house Backup and Surveillance solutions. As you can imagine, any media streaming services you would want to host off the F4-425 Pro will work great, thanks to the Intel Core N350 CPU and its 16 GB of DDR5 memory. Accessing from mobile is only possible if Security Isolation Mode is disabled, which can put your NAS at risk from external sources, so there was no way to access it from the TNAS Mobile app. It's also quiet. I had this sat next to my computer on my work desk for the past week, and I did wonder if the noise I was accustomed to with NAS devices would annoy me, but all I could hear was a soft whirring of the rear fan (which was a little annoying) when the disks were not actively copying or reading data. Conclusion So what have I learned? Unfortunately, this release raises a few important questions and concerns that I feel haven't been adequately addressed. What I didn't like Our variant shipped with TOS 7 beta, and it's advised not to use it in a production environment. I feel that's a bit limiting on an $800 device. The mobile app is also still in beta and does not support some of the first-party apps, like Surveillance, and it still has quite a few bugs. I am a bit confused about the OpenClaw marketing along with the F4-425 Pro. I feel like that if it's going to be a main selling point, then offer official guidance on how to get started with it. TerraMaster recommends enabling SPC, but then markets the NAS for use with OpenClaw, which requires disabling SPC to be able to use it, opening up genuine security concerns for the NAS; and that's before you get into the security concerns of OpenClaw itself. Of course, the above issues won't be a problem if you decide to install something else on it, or even go back to the stable TOS 6. I wish TerraMaster had just given TOS 7 as opt-in rather than shipping with it. TOS 7 has been available as a preview since December 2025 (so well before my last TerraMaster review), and according to a thread on Reddit where a user shared a screenshot from the TerraMaster Facebook page, it is scheduled to launch today, June 23, but there's nothing about that in the TerraMaster news blog. My contact confirmed over email that TOS 7 exits beta today. The rubber feet also deserve a mention as they continue to be a problem, with them coming unstuck the moment you shift the F4-425 Pro anywhere on your desk. What I liked What it comes down to, though, aside from what I already mentioned, you are still getting a quality, affordable device here, so recommending it will depend on the individual's use case. If you're just looking for a relatively small NAS device to manage virtual machines on, backup your files, and take care of your home theater streaming, then it is a great device that will certainly futureproof you for some time. It provides good performance, takes up little space, and is, on the whole, very quiet. Four bays afford proper redundancy using TRAID or RAID 5, and you can even expand on storage capacity by adding the 2-bay D5, or 4-bay D8 Hybrid DAS over a USB 3.2 (10Gbps) link. Considering the 2024 releases were more about power, with the likes of an Intel Core i5-1235U high-end laptop CPU under the hood, I asked my contact last time if we could expect more of the same in higher-end models and was told: It makes a lot of sense to use Intel's N350 chip inside a NAS; it is more than capable of doing what the F4-425 Pro is intended for, media streaming and backup. The only downside is still the clear lack of community and even staff support on the official forums. In the past, I have had topics go unanswered for days, or there would be generic-type "we've noted this and passed it onto our developer team" type responses. Along with the other things I mentioned, it all ends up costing it a couple of points. If you are comfortable with the command line, Docker, and setting up TrueNAS or Unraid, you'll be fine. You can do great things with this hardware. In TOS, the apps are a bit lacking, and things don't always work as expected.\ AI NAS?! What has become clear to me this year is that we are going to start seeing all kinds of "AI NAS" come to market, and while that might be good for us consumers, be diligent and research these claims. Although the F4-425 Pro technically comes with AI, it is really using a cloud service that is externally sourced off-device through the third party OpenClaw app. My colleague did review a newcomer to the NAS space earlier this year, and it includes a local AI assistant inside the Zettlab D4 NAS, and they do not even use AI in the product name, check out Chris' review here. Where to buy and a discount coupon However, it does not change the fact that this is truly a great entry-level home media-class NAS that you can buy right now. TerraMaster is having a 20% off launch discount, plus you can also still apply our unique 10% off coupon on checkout, which only works on the official website. So here is a breakdown of the pricing that is only valid on the official TerraMaster website. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $575.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $503.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £525.59 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £460.79 Use NEOWIN coupon code during checkout for 10% discount Over on Amazon US and UK, the F4-425 Pro also gets a 20% launch discount, but here, the above 10% coupon cannot be applied. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for $639.99 at Amazon US (was $799.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for $559.99 at Amazon US (was $699.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for £583.99 at Amazon UK (was £729.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for £511.99 at Amazon UK (was £639.99) As an Amazon Associate, when you purchase through links on our site, we earn from qualifying purchases.
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