religion? fake? real?

[RufioPan]

Another thing I would like to quickly add is the example of my religious community. Nowhere in any other sphere of my life have I found the dedication to humanity, goodwill, education, knowledge and faith that I have found in my religious community. I'm positive that others can attest to the same for their religious communities as well, and that's my point. In any truly God-believing community you will find people who go out of their way for others. True, you do find good people in every walk of life, and also true that everyone is good in their own little way. But no where will you find the same dedication and the same concentration of good-hearted people than you will at the core of a community that believes in God.

The reason for this is the fact that religion propogates good will and excellent moral characteristics. The best defintiion of morality that I have read is that a moral action is that action which is carried out at the right time and for the right reason, resulting in the greatest benefit. And these are really some of the beliefs of religious people, at least the religious people that I know. Many people I know who are not of the same religion as I am have commented on the fact that my community is particularly steadfast and organized and has done tremendously good things for society.

This brings me to another point. Governments change, borders shift, nations rise and fall, political and social movements come and go, but religion is consistent. If religious belief were truly based on fear or lack of knowledge, then it should've disappeared like every other movement, but it hasn't! All around the world, still are so many religious people, educated and not, wealthy and not, young and old. That consistency must ring true to some faculty of our human nature.

Anyways, that's enough for now... I gtg, but I'll type more on religion in nature next time.

Peace :)

[kongit]

God is dead. Everybody who loves him is a necrophiliac. :ninja:

[Chad]

Since this thread started off as an inquiry into religious belief as opposed to lack of belief, I'm going to stick to that. On that note, superfula, you should stick to the topic!

I'm not sure if you posted in the wrong thread, or if you just have no idea what the topic is. All of my posts have been ontopic and very relevant

[Rell]

God is dead. Everybody who loves him is a necrophiliac. :ninja:

:rolleyes: Right, keep comments like that to yourself.

[idkfa]

Those who believe in religion/God will know what I mean... we believe and that belief empowers us and drives us to accomplish good.

Why can't you just accomplish good on your own without having to believe. I'm an atheist and I have a perfectly fine time accomplishing good things.

This is an observation I have made over a few years and it always amuses me. Jesus was born and lived in the middle eastern area...I don't know exactly where Bethlahem and Nazareth are but he's from that general area. Now I might get my terminology wrong here and I don't mean to offend anyone, but people from that area are arabic and have a dark complexion. However, in all the pictures I have seen of Jesus and in all the movies that have been made where someone acts as Jesus, he is white. This is something I've never understood. I don't see how Jesus could have been white, it doesn't make much sense to me....maybe someone could explain if they know otherwise.

What I find amusing is that I'm sure there are a lot of people who believe in Jesus who would be uneasy with the idea of him not being white.

[jackwanders]

Ok, here's the thing about religion in general that really prevents me from 'believing'.

Humans have been around for, oh let's say 100,000 years, on the high end.

For (at the very least) the last, what, 10,000 years we've had religion, in one shape or another (I'm going back to early egyptians...if there was religion before that, it only strengthens my point).

Now obviously every religion believes it is correct, that's a given.

The egyptians, the babylonians, the greeks, the romans...they all had very distinct belief systems, and none of them are like the main religions of today (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). The babylonians believed the world was created by two dragons (trying to recall my classics class..not positive here). The egyptians believed in multiple gods, as well as the greeks and romans.

However, we now read these stories in high school literature class and have a laugh at Zeus disguising himself as a cow to pick up chicks.

Today, we have various belief systems. Christianty, Judaism, Islam, etc etc. Just like the societies of old, each group believes their religion is correct. They have to, otherwise they wouldn't believe in it. To think that 10000 years from now our religions won't go the way of Zeus, Ra and An...well that's just not being realistic, in my opinion. Although I suppose if you have faith in a religion, you also have to believe that it won't fade with time.

[kongit]

actually I don't believe what I posted above, but I guess nobody here reads nietzsche. maybe you ought to.

I find that religion is totally unnecessary to life and I never even think about god or heaven or whatnot unless somebody else brings it up. I was raised Catholic and know most all I ever want to know about god. And I know that in order to properly understand modern religion you have to understand the difference between beliefs and faith. beliefs are the facts that you hold true (ie mary is the mother of god) faith is knowing that something greater exists, but not knowing why you know.

Religion is real. How can you say it is not? the things that your religion may believe or have faith in though might be entirely false, but that doesn't mean your religion is fake.

[TheElite]

we (believers (muslims)) can only explain why we are here, the rest of the world DOES NOT have a clue!

[TheElite]

oh and superfula, i will post some responses to that when i get home. heh, quoting the bible, a book that has been changed over the couple thousand years. lol.

[idkfa]

we (believers (muslims)) can only explain why we are here, the rest of the world DOES NOT have a clue!

I'm sorry mate, but you're a fscken moron.

[jackwanders]

we (believers (muslims)) can only explain why we are here, the rest of the world DOES NOT have a clue!

Whoa! You can go ahead and have faith in whatever you want, but your comments are becoming more and more hostile.

Why do you feel the need to insult everyone here who's not a muslim?

If you can explain why we're here...why not go ahead and do it?

[intensityx]

I believe that many religions are used for power, control over society and to promote hate. Just look at the curent state of politics in the U.S. for an example, the President is pandering to the religious right-wingers and getting them all fired up about gay marriage to ensure he gets re-elected in Nov., nevermind that the country and the world face more urgent problems, people are still willing to forget everything else and focus in on misguided hate. It's mind boggling to me that there is such a large number of people that can be so easily manipulated, but this is nothing new.

As a spiritual person (not religious) I believe there is a god and I don't need a preacher or a bible or politician telling me what I should believe.

I also believe in science. In my view, God created everything which makes science possible, So why should I reject it? The big bang theory and theory of evolution doesn't threaten my faith in the least bit, instead it adds to it. My comprehension of God goes beyond this universe. I know that I am just a small part of this world and I will never fully understand everything in this world. I will always remain suspicious of those that claim to know everything there is to know about God and religion.

I think God has probably created countless living beings throughout this world and we are not at the center, but rather just a small part of a much bigger picture. It's just human nature for us to believe that we are at the center of the universe.

[xSammyx]

Zanwar jan, relax a bit, no one will want to listen to you if you get carried away. i understand you have something to say, but Islam teaches us to be calm and patient with people. and also do not swear akhi.

[WigglesTheFish]

i believe in a god but not in religion (i will not go into reasons because i care not to argue any points).

but my question is, if an atheist is one who disbelieves or denies the existence of god or gods and an agnostic is one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a god; what would one be that believes in a god but not religion, if there is a name for it, just curious :)

[shermang]

Here comes an opinion:

Religion IS a method of social control. I say this in the best way possible, because without religion many people would have trouble finding a 'meaning' to life or a reason to act good. Religion unites people in a common set of values and morals, this is good, whether god exists or not this is very very good.

I'm not going to decide whether god exists or if there's a higher power of any kind, i don't know if there is. Let's say for argument's sake that there isn't a God. The 'God' people have created in their various religions gives them guidelines to follow, guidelines that often end up making life better for everyone. Yes there were a few dozen large wars because of religion, but it saves us from everyday violence I think; most religions are against irrational violence, so because religions like Christianity are so popular in the west there are more people with the values put forth by Christianity. Those values are generally good and it's simply nice to live in a world where these good value guidelines have large influence.

Anyway, not sure if I got my point across...

Whether God exists or not is irrelevent, believe in relgion for YOU and for humanity.

Personally I follow Unitarian Universalism/Buddhism.

[xerox]

Just to make one thing clear:

Someone said that both atheists and agnostics believe there is no god.

This is wrong!

Atheist

: one who denies the existence of God

Agnostic

: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable;

broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

ubelphenix: Don't think there is a name for it, but you don't need one, do you? A free mind doesn't really need a label. :)

intensityx: I agree with you. Sadly, religion is a perfect tool for fanatics to manipulate and control others.

Both in small communities, and in larger societies. This doesn't necesarily make religion itself bad though, just the people...

RufioPan: You seem to come from a positive religious background, and you make some good arguments,

but the existence of religion throughout history does not really prove anything but our need for religion.

If you are looking for "proof" that religion is true, I think you have to look elsewhere.

Just because the majority believes something, doesn't always make it true/right.

:)

ZAnwar: if ignorance is bliss, then you are truly blessed :huh:

Oh, and kongit: Did you have a butt to brain transplant?

[xerox]

Here comes an opinion:

Religion IS a method of social control. I say this in the best way possible, because without religion many people would have trouble finding a 'meaning' to life or a reason to act good. Religion unites people in a common set of values and morals, this is good, whether god exists or not this is very very good.

I'm not going to decide whether god exists or if there's a higher power of any kind, i don't know if there is. Let's say for argument's sake that there isn't a God. The 'God' people have created in their various religions gives them guidelines to follow, guidelines that often end up making life better for everyone. Yes there were a few dozen large wars because of religion, but it saves us from everyday violence I think; most religions are against irrational violence, so because religions like Christianity are so popular in the west there are more people with the values put forth by Christianity. Those values are generally good and it's simply nice to live in a world where these good value guidelines have large influence.

Anyway, not sure if I got my point across...

Whether God exists or not is irrelevent, believe in relgion for YOU and for humanity.

Personally I follow Unitarian Universalism/Buddhism.

I disagree. People do not need religion to be good, and to have morals.

But left to our own devices, we humans often lose focus, and religion provides a quick and effective fix (in a historical perspective).

But even if religion sometimes appear to be "good" for the generel society, it is only good for a selected few, the rest will always be outcasts.

Trying to create a fundament, we often create fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is bad.

Do I need to explain why fundamentalism is bad?

:no:

Buddhism is one of the few religions I find appealing, but the moment you want to apply religious rules on society (or other people), any religion becomes corrupted. I don't want anyone to tell me that I will be saved, the moment someone does that, it's an attempt to control. People should never play God, or even claim to know God. We should only be humble, lead good lives, and accept that there are many thing we cannot control, or even comprehend. Keep an open mind, and an open heart.

Used for meditation and reflection, religion can be a good thing. But keep it on a personal, and philosophical level.

Try to find something that appeals to you on a personal level, not because you are brought up with it, or because the majority believes it.

Please do not attempt to push your religion onto others.

[blik]

There is no god or being that is all powerfull....therefore there is no religion (unless you are a naturalist or some other "religion" that believes in earth or some other physical/real object).... If there was/is a god he cant be all that great that he requires all theses people to worship him all the time... I mean if you were all powerfull you would know it you wouldnt need people to live in fear of you or have to worship you continually.

To clear some things up agnostics arent entirely sure what they believe they just dont know and thats fine. Athiesm has varying degrees however there are some who refuse to belive in a powerfull being no matter what, and there are others who DONT believe in god but are open minded and will accept that there is a god once there is proof. So believing there is no god is different to beliveing in the possibility of god.

All my opinion though....

[TheElite]

If you can explain why we're here...why not go ahead and do it?

there is an easy explanation, we are all here to worship God, if we weren't here, there would be no reason for this whole universe to be created.

give me a better reason than that?

[Rell]

oh and superfula, i will post some responses to that when i get home. heh, quoting the bible, a book that has been changed over the couple thousand years. lol.

you mean translated... :rolleyes:

[TheElite]

heh, okay :rolleyes:

[iamnotwhoisayiam]

Um... i missed the start of this topic and haven't got round to reading all 17 pages...

So i'll just say i dont believe in a god of any kind. Religion, and the belief in a 'God' is just something primitive humans came up with to explain things which they didnt understand and modern religion has grown from there.

Almost all of the reasons you get from religious folk for bad things happening amount to complete ****e. Why are so many people living in poverty? Gods will baby... Gods will...

Incidentally does the bible not believe that the world is only 6000 - 10000 years old? My RE teacher tried to explain that dinosaurs never actually existed and that all the bones and things were planted by scientists to try and convince people that there was no God.

Religion is crazy... I dont need to go to church every Sunday to prove I'm a good person. I dont need to pray to a mythical figure for good things to happen to me. I reap what I sew. If I live my life right and make the right decisions then good things will happen to me. I dont give 2 ****s what some guy up in the clouds thinks of me. The way some people have to live their lives because of what an ancient book says is rediculous. I bet whoever really wrote it is ****ing themself.

(Note: My view of religion is entirely based on Christianism in its many deluded forms, if ive got things wrong which apply to any other religion then sorry)

[kongit]

Oh, and kongit: Did you have a butt to brain transplant?

yes I did, and I am enjoying it.

[RufioPan]

Hello everyone! Be forewarned... this post is VERY long. :) I would like to first off refer everyone to Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth and the Quran. You'll certainly find a wealth of knowledge at those links.

RufioPan: You seem to come from a positive religious background, and you make some good arguments,

but the existence of religion throughout history does not really prove anything but our need for religion.

If you are looking for "proof" that religion is true, I think you have to look elsewhere.

Just because the majority believes something, doesn't always make it true/right.

Good point xerox! So does the continued existance of religion and a belief in God throughout history prove the existance of God? I'd have to argue that yes, it does. Apparently this need for God is ingrained in humanity and we cannot live without Him. Could we live without food or air? Those are needs just the same, and no one will argue that we need them to survive.

Say you don't buy that as evidence... then I have to ask, what is the motivation for humanity to continue its existance? Why should anyone have reason to serve another human being... what would be our need to survive? Simply to propogate? Humanity's intellectual evolution and our self-realization make this impossible... That would make our existance either entirely futile or not without a higher purpose :)

So what is the purpose of humanity? By design, and evolutionarily speaking, is it simply to exist and propogate like other animal species on earth? It would seem we've evolved to possess (read: been granted) higher faculties of reasoning and rationality. Are these faculties in place simply to allow us as a species to survive and dominate? Every other animal species has simply been granted the capacity to survive and live by their instinct. We have more. Doesn't that in itself show the sign of a Creator? Biologically it wouldnt' make sense... we would require far less intellectual capacity to be the dominant species... yet we continue to progress. If there is no life after this one, no larger plan, then why continue progression? Why not just live by the creed of survival? Why care for others when we exist only as individuals? Why leave a legacy for a civlization we won't know after we die? What becomes the purpose of our existance?

On the other hand, if there is a larger purpose, then our capacity does not seem like overkill (as far as the purpose of survival goes), does it?

You see, when you remove God from the equation, our entire existance, everything we know, becomes entirely meaningless and fruitless. The fact that we possess the faculties and abilities that we do is in itself the greatest evidence of the existance of God. That sense of purpose we feel.. that *need* for religion/God that you acknowledged is God's signature.

This is another issue I wanted to touch on. The Quran in many places, challenges mankind to find any contradiction in the creation of God (ie. the universe and everything in it), and it's true. You won't find any contradiction. We have laws of nature, we have physical laws, chemical laws, biological laws, astronomical laws... everything works with exact precision. Could this be the case if creation was left to chance? At every point in the creation of the universe and the evolution of mankind the odds were against us progressing to higher and higher levels, yet we did... and the universe conspired to allow our existance. In the grand universal equation that consists of an infinite number of variables, it seems humanity "lucked out", our numbers came out right, and here we are today. Is it chance? It appears the universe is not without a sense of purpose, because for every step forward, the odds were that we would take 10 steps back. If evolution is based on trial and error or some blind concept of "survival of the fittest", then how many trials did it take to get where we were, and why weren't we wiped out? To me, that also is the work of God.

To me, the whole universe is one huge testament to a single God. You really won't find any contradictions in the laws of the universe... and thus you won't find any contradictions between scientific fact and the Quran. I defy anyone to prove otherwise. ZAnwar, pay attention here... the Quran does not deny the Big Bang theory, and in fact stated it as fact 1400 yrs ago.

In chapter 21, verse 31, the Quran states:

"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

Two facts stated here and not known by mankind at that time were that the universe was once a closed up mass (perhaps a super dense black hole?), and that all living things are created from water (supporting the fact that humans are comprised mostly of water... 75% i believe). I do not think there is a more accurate description of the initial state of the universe in any other faith, and certainly none made by any secular scientists of the time. Where did this knowledge come from then?

The Quran also talks of the universe's ever-expanding state (a well known fact of modern times, yet unthinkable 1400 yrs ago):

"And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it (musi'un)." (Chapter 51, verse 48)

It should be remembered that the concept of the continuous expansion of the universe is exclusive to the Quran. No other Divine scriptures even remotely hint at it. The discovery that the universe is constantly expanding is of prime significance to scientists, because it helps create a better understanding of how the universe was initially created. It clearly explains the stage by stage process of creation, in a manner which perfectly falls into step with the theory of the Big Bang. The Quran goes further and describes the entire cycle of the beginning, the end and the return again to a similar beginning.

The commentary quoted above is not mine, but from Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth, in the chapter entitled "The Quran and Cosmology". Now as indicated in that quoted exerpt, the Quran also mentions the end of the universe, and it appears as if the lifecycle of the universe is cyclical. The Quran states:

"Remember the day when We shall roll up the heavens like the rolling up of written scrolls ... " (Chapter 21, verse 105)

Essentially, the Quran is of the opinion that the universe will again collapse into itself, into one giant black hole. True, our observations indicate for the time being that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, but it is not impossible for there to occur some cosmological phenomena that will reverse the trend. It can be debated either way right now. But what is of note in the quoted verse is the description of that collapse. It is described as a "rolling up of written scrolls". Now most ppl imagine a collapse into a black hole as things being sucked in from every direction to the center of the black hole, but this is not the case. Black holes actually form a disc of matter around them (due to their rotation), and matter/light being sucked in is pulled into the relatively flat disc and proceeds to travel round and round the disc until eventually falling into the black hole. If seen from the top, the path that a particle would take would be a spiral pattern *exactly* like that of rolled up scroll.

I have cited these verses simply to demonstrate that religion/God does exist and in fact, in perfect harmony with the nature of human existance and the knowledge we possess. These verses are just a minute sampling of the knowledge in the Quran.... and they are part of the reason I have firm faith in God.

Now, as for those that say that religion, God, and doing good are not related, I would have to argue against them. If there exists a God and our existance being a manifestation of His power, then it stands to reason that He would guide us and inform us of His existance. That guidance comes in the form of prophets, Holy Books, and ... religion. The thing to remember is that religion is simply a way of life that indicates the best/most straight path to God, and how to use our faculties to realize Him. Holy Books and Prophets are books of wisdom and moral guide posts, respectively. They tell us how to lead the most moral life possible... i.e. doing what's best for people in appropriate measure, and at the appropriate time. Divorcing good action from religion/God is not impossible, or wrong, but it is in the end, unsustainable. I'm not talking about the actions of organizations like Red Cross. Those organizations have a mission, and they're doing great. What I'm questioning is whether an individual can do good and successfully propogate those values. Thing is, when you do good and have good values that are not backed up with a religious base, then you're building your moral base on a shaky foundation. Basically you've decided to do good just because, and you feel good about it.

How is one to propogate those values? Can you successfully pass those values on to your progeny? How sustainable are those values? Individuals live and die, societies come and go, nations rise and fall, and politics change like the wind. Therefore, any movement of good based on any of those is temporal in nature, and has already determined it will have a finite life span. God, on the other hand, knows this and has dictated in the Quran that we should do good things for Him, and that servicing humanity pleases Him. When one does good for God, then how can their actions be in vain? That's why I gave the example of my community. Since our efforts are based upon the unshakable belief in God, our efforts will never cease. We are not subject to the limitations of political movements and such. Good works are dictated as a part of our faith, a part of our creed. When I teach my children to do good, it won't be simply because i say so, or because good works make you feel good, but because a higher authority demands it of us. Religious people automatically hold themselves to higher standards and try to excel everyone else in doing good. That is the difference between doing good, and doing good in the name of God.

So it's true that you don't need to be religious to be good, I applaud those who are good and not religious. Perhaps they are better than many religious people, perhaps they are better than I am. But it remains that they are good simply because they want to be. I also try to be good because I want to be, but moreso because my God commands it of me. Which is the more powerful motivation?

I'm sure some will argue that similarly, doing bad in the name of God often becomes worse than just doing bad. While arguable, it's hardly fair. As stated in an earlier posting, any movement that empowers people becomes a target for those that want to achieve their own selfish goals.

This conversation also neccesitates a means of determining what exactly is good. The way to discern between a truely godly movement and one that is selfish is with knowledge and reason. Any actions of that movement should not contradict reason and should not offend human nature. That also means not forcing your way upon others and not fighting unjust wars. These rules are laid out quite bare in the Quran.

One will also find that generally speaking, all religions have a very similar concept of what is good and what is not. Far from every religion claiming to be the sole path to God, in my opinion, every religion was delivered for a particular people and for a particular time in history with the exception of Islam. Without getting into an interfaith debate, I simply want to express that it is my belief that religion has evolved according to the needs of the people of that time and the course that those peoples had to take to God. But with the advent of Islam, the evolution of religion was completed and finally all mankind was covered under one set of guidance and law.

By the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again... I still believe all Divinely revealed religions contain truth in them. I have nothing against followers of other religions... I simply believe that Islam is the most direct and effective path to God.

In any case, this post turned out to be far far longer than I imagined. In closing, I'd like to recommend that all passersby please take a look at Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth and of course, the Quran.

I hope my comments were of some interest to you all.

Peace! :)

[kongit]

MY butthead only has one comment and that is that I live quite nicely without god.