religion? fake? real?

[forster]

We'll see when I die, until then, I'm keeping my options open.

[TheElite]

Oh..and Muslims...what the hell was Muhammed thinking saying he was the seal of Prophets - what f*ckin right does he have to take absolute power and deprive anyone else after him from doing the bullsh*t he's done?? :angry:

because he WAS the last prophet!!!!!

if you dont know about Islam, dont chat **** about it.

Edited February 16, 2004 by ZAnwar

[SkolVikings]

Science remains a critical opponent to religion?s strong conviction to the truth.

Sure, but any rational person knows that the scientific method cannot be used to prove or disprove everything in the universe. The scientific method is a great tool, and probably one of the greatest intellectuary achievements of humanity. However there are barriers present. The scientific method is restricted only to that which can be tested in controlled environments. We do not possess the knowledge or technology to accomplish that for anything and everything. Surely we all recognize there is MUCH more to this universe than we've yet discovered through science. Beyond that, there are things that the scientific method can never be used for.

An example would be history. We can use science as a tool in building circumstantial evidence pertaining to the validity or invalidity of a historical event, but sans a time machine, science in and of itself cannot with 100% certainty validify the facts of historical events. At best it could provide evidence to acheive a "reasonable doubt" standard, but even that does not achieve the scientific definition of fact. The scientific method is awesome, and I love living in a world reaping the benefits of its discoveries (e.g. computers), but science is not the end-all-be-all that some make it out to be. If the Christian God is real, how could we ever be so arrogant as to think that humanity's science could prove or disprove His existance? Sure that may sound like a convienient circular argument to some (as if some of the more popular scientific theories don't have those themselves), and based on logic alone perhaps it is. But that's to ignore faith, which is key to believing.

Have you ever just known something was true, even though you didn't have adequate evidence or anything the scientfic method could provide you to prove you are right? You absolutely can't prove it, but you know deep inside that it is true. More often than not, when people feel that way, in the end they turn out to be right. How can science explain that? Actually, it probably can, because there was enough circumstantial evidence that your subconscience brain was able to put two-and-two together. Well I feel the same is true of my faith in God. I couldn't prove it to you outright, but I've seen, heard, and felt enough things to solidify my own beliefs.

[DELTA75329]

:wacko:

[Rell]

erm yeah, but if i can find 1 contradiction, scientists can find hundreds.

there is not one in the Quran!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really depends on what your comparing as contradicting.

There are lots of stories in the different books of the bible, some not relating to each other at all. The ones not relating to eachother should not be compared.

[TheElite]

no, i am talking about 2 different places, stating the same thing, but giving different facts.

[SkolVikings]

no, i am talking about 2 different places, stating the same thing, but giving different facts.

Well let's consider that for a moment. Today, if you have three individuals witness the same event, and they recall the event using the exact same details verbatim, most people would rightly suspect collusion. On the other hand, if the three witnesses recall extremely similar events, getting most of their stories straight but with minor discrepancies, most people would accept that. Three people witnessing the same event will notice and remember different details, and those details don't have to represent a contradiction.

[tool]

because he WAS the last prophet!!!!!

Prove it.

There could be a hundred prophets since, probably labelled as heretics or nutters. Muhammad got lucky.

If you think I am talkin **** about the religion. I honestly don't care - I ain't being racist and it aint intentional.

The other thing about Muslims, I know you are going to counter this with stuff about us westerners are sexist too, but hey, I thought Muslims were AGAINST sexism. So what about the headgear/covering, the different places in Mosques, the Woman losing her religion if she marries a non-muslim?

Not a crusade against Islam and I don't want you guys to get offended. Just pointing out some stuff.

P.S. SkolVikings...What is up with ur sig...tell meh thats a ****take?

[orestes]

Ever done that little experiment in middleschool/highschool where the techer says something to the last kid in the room and then that kid whispers it to the next kid and so on and so on. By the time the first kid in class gets the secret it's all distorted. Thats religion in a nutshell...except on top of all the vocal passing on people also get to sit and edit the stories before they write it down. My fathers a minister...religion is nothing but greed and it is all about money (at least the top religions of the world). Case in point, look at the pope...he looks like he makes an avergae salary eh? Holding services at golden altars and such.

[SkolVikings]

Ever done that little experiment in middleschool/highschool where the techer says something to the last kid in the room and then that kid whispers it to the next kid and so on and so on. By the time the first kid in class gets the secret it's all distorted. Thats religion in a nutshell...

Except today's New Testament is a scholarly translation from texts dating to within one generation of the time the events occurred. In terms of historical books, the validity that the text we're reading is the text that was actually originally written is much greater than any book written prior to the printing press.

[SkolVikings]

Btw I have no interest in institutionalized religion.

A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

I'm much more interested in a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I could care less what the Pope does or doesn't do. Are "religious leaders" greedy. Undoubtably some are.

Criticizing a belief in God because of the acts of some who claim to follow Him is illogical. Apply the same argument to human leaders, and you'll see the fallacy.

[tool]

Now, we have to understand that religion is not black and white. I seem to find that religions such as Catholisism are corrupt and controlling, things like the salvation army and the anglican church are more orientated around the nice bits. (IMO Islams about half way).

As I said before...Buddhisms got it right.

[2009]

hey tool what kind of teaching do you see in buddhism to make you say that? and yea, i think buddism is a good religion.

[tool]

I agree with their views on abortion, their non strictness, their calm ness, meditatings great and they like martial arts. They are pacifists and they have cool monk dudes :p

Oh yeah, my RS teacher is a buddhist and he is an amazing teacher and person, he always lets us debate things and treats us as equals.

Finally, they have none (that i can think of) of the bullsh*t associated with other religions - holy wars, homophobia, celibacy, peadophillia (yes, i know thats not ALL catholic priests) etc

[TheElite]

Finally, they have none (that i can think of) of the bullsh*t associated with other religions - holy wars, homophobia, celibacy, peadophillia (yes, i know thats not ALL catholic priests) etc

yeah but dont you think that they are pacifists or dont fight holy wars, etc... because they dont have anything to fight for?

[pmh]

If religion isn't real, then what the heck is our purpose in life? The only logical thing to do would be to kill yourself!

Friends, Christianity isn't about following rules, it is about a relashonship. Look at the evidence, nearly all scholare's belive that there was once a man named Jesus that at the very least, he did good and miraculas things. - This is an increadable topic that I don't have time at the moment to pursue further ( I'll try to get this up later tonight).

The point is, Christianity ISN'T about rules.

Sure a church would take tithe, but all that money goes back into the church and back to the people.

Please, feel free to talk to me on msn or I will also check back here every so often.

[Dave Veteran]

As I said before...Buddhisms got it right.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Most of us are pretty convinced we got it right too. (go figure)

[ForkliftDude]

If religion isn't real, then what the heck is our purpose in life? The only logical thing to do would be to kill yourself!

so you need some imaginary figure to give your life a reason?

no thanks, if the only reason of life is to worship some white bearded clown up in the sky, i'll do harakiri!

[Emon]

WTF???????? :blink: :huh: :rolleyes:

Quran also says do not ..I repeat .. DO NOT SWEAR. :pinch:

[TheElite]

Quran also says do not ..I repeat .. DO NOT SWEAR. :pinch:

tru dat :cry:

[TheElite]

so you need some imaginary figure to give your life a reason?

no thanks, if the only reason of life is to worship some white bearded clown up in the sky, i'll do harakiri!

why do you think we are here then? :blink:

[lammmetak]

i was grown up as cristian but when i was in egypte i learned what the truth is.

this is not swearing but the truth:

cristians stole it from the egyptians. example: Isis, god of love mothers and good. cristians call here maria.

they got the same charachter charistics.

so sinds then i belive in the egyptian gods.

i believe in miracles . and some times they will dowhat i would like to have.

but sometimes its better to dont get the miracles. its just sometimes when its importend for when i get miracles.

like for exams: god will help me:)

and i thank him for that.

[CrimsonBlur]

If religion isn't real, then what the heck is our purpose in life? The only logical thing to do would be to kill yourself!

That isn't at all logical, that is completely outragious! I think religion is a bunch of crap. Organized religion has caused so many deaths and problems over the years that it cannot possibly be perpetuating what it claims it can, and it cannot possibly be the way to attaining the true meaning of life. REAL Christians, and similar belief systems (I don't feel like naming them all), have this concept nailed down much better, however. They see it as a relationship, and this leaves no room for the atrocities that have taken place in the name of the churches and cultures of other forms of religions, or even other forms of Christianity. This specific subject is very involved, so I'll leave my statements on that alone and move on.

I know this is a terrible example I'm about to give, and while I'm writing this I think of some other stuff to say on this topic: Think about a newborn baby. They have no beliefs. They have no ability to communicate intelligently, and have virtually no control of their own actions beyond inherent abilities that are a product of millenia of evolution. The beliefs a person eventually attains must be instilled into them. I have met no one, nor heard of anyone, that has lived in a vacuum since birth, come out on their own free will and with no contact with other people declaired "God is real! Jesus Christ is our savior!". The person would have no idea Jesus existed (assuming Christianity is not real, and God does not "live inside us all"). If the person worshipped anything at all, it would most likely be something they encountered in the vacuum that was somehow different. Like if you placed a bright white light far above them in a large empty room, I'm willing to bet they would worship that light, just as in the past the Sun and the Moon were worshipped. Granted, the experiment I have just explained has not been done, to my knowledge, but since it has not been done, NO ONE can prove I am not right. It is an idea, a concept, and until that is done, nothing can be proven either way, but that is my belief.

On that note, why has no one mentioned societies such as Native Americans? Their religion is based in nature. They worshipt Mother Nature in all her glory. They do not worship nature as a "perfect being", they worship something more closeley resembling a "perfect balance", something that is so hard for other cultures to grasp, that virtually no other culture on the planet thinks of life in the same terms; most default to the "perfect, devine, superior being".

Goint back to the idea of how you attain beliefs I started off with... my point is, I have never met someone that was raised as an athiest, and decided to be a Christian, a Muslim, etc. without being, how shall I say, "convinced" by another person or event. Now, I know I am now going to get a ton of people claiming they themselves have in fact done exactly what I have said I have never seen happen, and good for them. But I would challenge any of you who claim this to prove that you really, truely converted because the idea was instilled into you by GOD. You know, that inherent feeling you supposedly get because God is in us all that everyone always talks about? Did you REALLY get your concept of God in this sense? I very highly doubt it.

Supposedly there are examples of people (in the respective texts of religion) that have been basically called upon by God (prophets, I suppose) that had no belief, and no intention of believing, and purely by this were converted or convinced. I have yet to encounter this myself, or any person that has convincingly (or at all) portrayed this concept in my lifetime, and have never talked to anyone who has heard of or knows someone they know for a fact this has happened to. Word-of-mouth simply proves nothing without evidence, and evidence isn't trivial. You cannot go around after the fact and just SAY things are true because you say so. There must be proof, there must be some kind of process of events, similar to the practice of law. You cannot be found innocent or guilty of something simply because some dude said one time that you killed his grandmother, no matter how credible the person supposedly is. There is a process. In the same vain, you cannot prove you were contacted by God without someone being there every step of the way, witnessing your transformation and being able to confirm that yes, in fact, you were converted by an unknown force. If that evidence/proof is not there, then there is NO PROOF, and you are assuming you are right because you "know" you are right, and everyone is believing you simply because they do not THINK you are lying to them. Writing that experience down is no more proof of anything than saying it verbally. And by saying that, I'm sure you all know what I am implying.

Alright, yeah, I have some free time right now, and I alwas love discussing this topic. If anyone actually reads all of that, that's awesome. If not, well, I still like voicing my opinion (as does everyone) and trying to fire up the thinking process :)

[TheElite]

yeah but you have not answered the question, why are we here?

[CrimsonBlur]

yeah but you have not answered the question, why are we here?

Well, I only partially answered the question in the original post in the first place, haha. And this question of "why are we here" was not asked in the original post, just simply if you believe religion is real or fake, and who made it up. I think I pretty much summed my feelings on that up, but you'd have to read between the lines a little in my long-ass post to really get that impression.

By the way, there is no way I can answer that question for you; just as YOU cannot answer that question for ME. There is no way I am going to let someone else define the reason that I exist, and what I should live for. THAT is what takes away the meaning of your life, takes away the meaning of existance and why we are here/alive.