Halo Reach Thread

[HawkMan]

again, you fail to take into account the new class powers in your balancing, they fix a lot of those issues.

As for one exit rooms, why not, especially if there's a nice goodie in the other end. alternatively, just don't run into them.

Also I'm not entirely sure you're fully aware of the shortest path to the flag capture point on Sword base. by using a jetpack, and jumping on the force jump you can get to the capture point in a few seconds.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

Well, I hate to bring something of the pass up but, one of my first games I ever played in the Halo 3 Beta on neowin was with DirtyLarry and Monkey. I no scoped Monkey while he was going full speed on Valhalla on the moongoose, my first game in reach was an overkill extermination. :)

Halo 3 beta really reminds me of the good old days so to speak. I just don't think we'll ever be able to replicate that kind of member participation like we did back then. It really was a whole lot of fun.

IIRC, at one point in time we have 19 members playing at the same time. I remember trying to make sure everyone got to play more than actually playing myself, I spent most of the time sending invites and messages over Live.

I only rented ODST so have been unable to check this beta out but then again I'm no longer playing games as much as I did just a few years ago. Also just have always been neutral with Halos MP I can take it or leave it and be fine either way. I'll definitely play some once the retail game comes out. I have been reading this thread and overall sounds like it's solid like it's always been.

[andersonshatch]

you'd think it being a Halo PREQUEL, itd be more like Halo CE multiplayer, which was the best so far even with no Live. ive always wondered, these weapons in a prequel why aren't they in the others eh! why did the covenant suddenly lose the needle rifle, or the plasma nade launcher and why would the UNSC decide not to have a thumper etc involved on Halo 1/2/3 as a weapon.

answers please

Heh, I've thought about that before, dunno why really since I don't really care that much about the story of weapons as long as they're good in the game they're in. Saying that though, I think I recall from a Bungie podcast their justification for all this stuff not being around in the other games (which are set later in time) was that they were all destroyed when Reach got glassed :p

Doesn't quite work for the covenant weapons though, does it. Hehe.

[HawkMan]

Well it could also be explained with evolving technology, maybe the other side developed stuff that made the weapon inefficient. they needed to drop some of the superfluous weapons to simplify the transport and maintenance.

and most importantly, we've only seen fairly small parts of the conflict, maybe master chief just didn't prefer them. and they wheren't simply used in those deployments.

[Stetson]

@hawkman: The game has many balance issues.

...

Second, while Bungie made juggling way less annoying in terms of speed, they forgot to correct the audio. Thy should have assumed that players would try it anyways and therefore of fixed the audio. Why they didn't, I don't know.

...

Bungie's current Weekly Update lists this as one of the issues already slated for fix by the final release. There are quite a few other issues that they addressed as well.

[Emn1ty]

again, you fail to take into account the new class powers in your balancing, they fix a lot of those issues.

I have, trust me. My issue with them is that rather than being part of gameplay, they literally dictate it. They are too influential in combat compared to their ancestors (cloak, over-shield and equipment).

As for one exit rooms, why not, especially if there's a nice goodie in the other end. alternatively, just don't run into them.

There shouldn't be rooms with only one safe exit. Currently the capture room is a complete deathtrap for 1 Flag CTF on Sword Base. It is too easy to camp and NEEDS another angle of attack.

Also I'm not entirely sure you're fully aware of the shortest path to the flag capture point on Sword base. by using a jetpack, and jumping on the force jump you can get to the capture point in a few seconds.

I am entirely aware of this, and this is what I mean by a single way to win. Carrying the flag around the walkways is completely pointless on Sword Base and the only way you can really expect to get a capture is by using the lift. This is a problem, and exactly the reason why the map needs to be amended or at the least the points reversed.

[HawkMan]

There's two entries to the capture room on sword base actually.

that is in fact the problem with that map. the fast route is to fast. luckily I've only been in one game where people knew how to use it, that's when I learnt it. and I only managed to use it correctly once. though with some practice you get the flag up there before the defence is out of their starting room.

You have to jump onto the jump boost at the roght speed forward, and then you have to use your jetpack to drop the flag at the right heigh so it goes all the way up. Then you just garb it again on the ledge and score.

It's an ok route, the problem with it is that you can score way to fast using it.

So if you're aware of this, why do you then claim there's only one entry ? :p

[Emn1ty]

So if you're aware of this, why do you then claim there's only one entry ? :p

I said there is only one exit, that being the hallway (you could jump out the window but you'd be a sitting duck at the bottom). There are multiple ways to enter (exterior via jetpack, red lift and the hallway), but they are all suicide if the enemy team holds the area already (the one you described usually results in a quick death due to pursuing jetpackers or grenade spam). The area really is a death trap and this is why it should be reversed. There is little reason to camp the defender's spawn in CTF when you have the flag. It would be a little simpler to capture the flag effectively if this were the case, and it would be easier for the defenders to defend without having to try and catch up to the flag on the upper levels from spawning at the lowest level.

[HawkMan]

see again the the new aqddons like the jumpack or even sprinting and stealth all fix the sitting duck issue.

And camping in the flag capture zone is stupidly suicidal anyway, You fail to consider the powerful grenades that when lobbed in there clears it out nicely.

and as I said if you do it right, there's no defenders up there anyway if you use the jump boost. have a half decent team with spring and a jetpack working together, and you have the flag and scored with the flag in seconds. while the defending team is still heading to the flag defense room.

on a balance point the map works really well, the only problem is that you can score to quickly. The balance proves itself if you look at the match statistics and play with "skill" as a connection option. using skill and good connection it takes a little longer to find games, but I almost always get good even matches. The only times I don't is when people on either team don't understand the gametype or are plain idiots

I actually had people not only dumping flags at the enemy dump, but even takign them from our capture point and bringing them to their cpollection point.... and most people completely ignore the capture points on invasion slayer.

The problem witht he flag hoarding gametype may be the result of what is either a bad decision por a bug in the game type though. Since the red base gets a blu hud marker and vica versa. usually one as a read guy, would run for the collection point marked with a red diamon on our hud...

[HawkMan]

I also wish more people in invasion would understand teammate spawning.

[Stetson]

I said there is only one exit, that being the hallway (you could jump out the window but you'd be a sitting duck at the bottom).

Jumping out the windows on Swordbase does not mean falling to the bottom. There are ledges that run along the outside of the rooms, they are very useful.

[Slane]

see again the the new aqddons like the jumpack or even sprinting and stealth all fix the sitting duck issue.

Can't use any of that with flag. If you do it's auto-drop. And the flag at the bottom of a huge room would make it a sitting duck for the other team who spawns above you, raining nades and clips into you.

[HawkMan]

Yeah, but since the flag room is the last place you're going, that's not an issue :p

And you're supposed to be vulnerable with the flag.

[Emn1ty]

see again the the new aqddons like the jumpack or even sprinting and stealth all fix the sitting duck issue.

- Sprinting doesn't avoid nades, it just makes them less likely to kill you (it isn't fast enough to void the current short fuse).

- Jetpack makes you a sitting duck regardless.

- Armor Lock makes you the biggest sitting duck, especially in an open area. They just wait for you to stop and then nade you.

And camping in the flag capture zone is stupidly suicidal anyway, You fail to consider the powerful grenades that when lobbed in there clears it out nicely.

Considering the Shotgun spawns right next to it, doesn't seem too suicidal. And you also forget that those inside can EASILY throw them at the entrances just as well. Trust me, it is very very hard to cap a flag when they are at the top already. You entire attacking team spawns at the bottom and the defending team now has the high ground in your own base.

But even with a perfect cap, most games end in ties. The level is all about which team gets to the cap point first, the defenders or the attackers. Usually it is the attackers which is why the game ends in so many ties.

and as I said if you do it right, there's no defenders up there anyway if you use the jump boost. have a half decent team with spring and a jetpack working together, and you have the flag and scored with the flag in seconds. while the defending team is still heading to the flag defense room.

Which is why most games end in ties, not shutouts. Most games end 2 for 2. This is a problem. It is too easy to attack the defenders from the high ground. Defenders should always have the high ground.

on a balance point the map works really well, the only problem is that you can score to quickly. The balance proves itself if you look at the match statistics and play with "skill" as a connection option. using skill and good connection it takes a little longer to find games, but I almost always get good even matches. The only times I don't is when people on either team don't understand the gametype or are plain idiots

Skill =/= cooperation. I search under team player and chatty so that I get people who like to work together and communicate.

I actually had people not only dumping flags at the enemy dump, but even takign them from our capture point and bringing them to their cpollection point.... and most people completely ignore the capture points on invasion slayer.

The problem witht he flag hoarding gametype may be the result of what is either a bad decision por a bug in the game type though. Since the red base gets a blu hud marker and vica versa. usually one as a read guy, would run for the collection point marked with a red diamon on our hud...

Even with sensible players and good teams, blue team generally wins on Sword Base and Red Team wins on Powerhouse. Why? Cause they have advantageous positions. On Sword Base, Blue Team has 3 of the 4 flags in easily accessible areas with safe routes back to base. Red Team has one. Blue team has two entry points, none of which allow grenades into the flag capture area from outside the main room. Red Team can be grenaded from around 50% of the level and most of these grenades will be smack dab on their capture point.

When it comes to Powerhouse, Red Team has the high ground, easy access to rockets AND the grenade launcher, and with said high ground they literally have a view of the enemy's capture point. They have a better position and more power weapons. This is also unbalanced. I have been measuring this stuff out as much as possible. 220 games in and I have found many gametypes and levels to be predictable. And I'm a guy who hates to give up. But this isn't a matter of giving up, teams are not on equal ground with the current objective gametypes.

@stetson - When the entire enemy team has jetpacks, it really doesn't matter where you go, they'll kill you. Another annoying thing about objective on Sword Base. Jetpacks aren't an option, they are a necessity. The amount of mobility the jetpack offers in terms of sustained flight is insane and far too much of a payoff on both Sword Base and Powerhouse. It should have a shorter flight time and a faster Regen to make it a tool and not a mode of transport. Sprint has to navigate the map, jetpack doesn't. So why does the jetpack work equal to/longer than sprint?

[HawkMan]

Your points would all be valid if

- ammo and grenades where unlimited

- The shotgun actually had the range you claim, it's got a decent range, but nothing less than it should. lethal range is pretty much just outside sword range anyway, further off and you need 2-3 shots

- it's a lot easier to dodge nades when you're not in the room with "no exits".

And while a lot of games do end 2-2 I'm not sure about most, not if you actually use the rather excellent skill based grouping XBL offers anyway. I have just as many games, ending 1-1 or 1-2.

besides you're contradicting yourself. if the capture point was so easy to defend, they should end 0-0. 2-2 implies the flag scored every time. Which they usually will do if your team is good. simply because of the speed at which you can score on sword base if you rush. and you make jetpacks out a lot more powerful than they are, jetpackers are easy to kill. Stealth, sprint and shield are all more usefull abilities.

yeah jetpacks are handy to get high quick. but you don't score if you don't have the flag with you.

I don't really like sword base as a map, but not because of any of those complaints. except that the long route is simply too long. and the short route, as I have said is too short for the early game.

[Emn1ty]

Your points would all be valid if

- ammo and grenades where unlimited

- The shotgun actually had the range you claim, it's got a decent range, but nothing less than it should. lethal range is pretty much just outside sword range anyway, further off and you need 2-3 shots

- it's a lot easier to dodge nades when you're not in the room with "no exits".

1) You spawn with them, which means there are tons available on the map from normal spawns and dead enemies. They might as well be unlimited. You haven't played much Reach if you haven't seen an over-prevalence of nade tossing. EFFECTIVE nade tossing.

2) The [rul=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6FGBb8LcvM]Shotgun[/url] has the longest range of any Halo game prior in Halo Reach. And it works really well. It can completely destroy most every CQC weapon single handedly and I personally fear it on Sword Base far more than the Sword.

3) This point has no bearing on what I stated. You are assuming what I said was limited to that one room on Sword Base. It isn't. This is regardless of situations. By the time you activate any armor ability, you will either be hit or stranded and at the mercy of your enemy (armor lock). The ONLY AA that gets you away from a grenade effectively is Evasive. That doesn't even always do it.

And while a lot of games do end 2-2 I'm not sure about most, not if you actually use the rather excellent skill based grouping XBL offers anyway. I have just as many games, ending 1-1 or 1-2.

I don't. Almost every game I play now ends with either a lucky 1-0 or the more often than not 2-2/1-1. It almost always ties. Capture is too easy, but insanely difficult if you do anything but the perfect capture.

besides you're contradicting yourself. if the capture point was so easy to defend, they should end 0-0. 2-2 implies the flag scored every time. Which they usually will do if your team is good. simply because of the speed at which you can score on sword base if you rush. and you make jetpacks out a lot more powerful than they are, jetpackers are easy to kill. Stealth, sprint and shield are all more usefull abilities.

The CAPTURE POINT, not the GRAB POINT. You are mixing up my words. The point is, that more likely than not you will capture the flag before they catch up. But the nature of the capture point makes it so that if they DO catch you and kill your team, the defending team can now camp your cap point and literally steamroll the attacking team till it returns.

There is a reason I see a defender always huffing it to the attackers spawn. He wants to grab the shotgun and wait. Sniper soon follows and is defended by the shotgun holder until we happen to cap the flag. They then high tail it to our base and destroy us before we can cap. Thats how the CTF on that map works. And the fact that trying anything else doesn't work is just irritating. They either camp your spawn till round up or you get an easy cap cause they weren't jerk enough to camp your base.

yeah jetpacks are handy to get high quick. but you don't score if you don't have the flag with you.

/facepalm

I don't really like sword base as a map, but not because of any of those complaints. except that the long route is simply too long. and the short route, as I have said is too short for the early game.

It is the ONLY route. You take the long route, you won't capture. There needs to be more than two literal routes. There needs to be two VARIABLE routes. As it is, both Powerhouse and Sword base only have one, static route as a viable option. All other options are completely useless compared to these and it ruins dynamic gameplay. The most obvious route is also the best, unfortunately.

[HawkMan]

Actually, you can half jump and just to the last part of the long route. usually what happens when you fubar the jump.

and yeah, there's a lot of effective grenade spamming, but I have actually gotten fairly good at avoiding them, either by running, or shielding if I have that. and while the shield does leave you vulnerable that's why you play in teams. and why I hate when I get a stupid team. but when I get a team with people that actually cover each other. Then it's bliss. Doesn't work if you lone wolf it of course.

[Emn1ty]

Actually, you can half jump and just to the last part of the long route. usually what happens when you fubar the jump.

and yeah, there's a lot of effective grenade spamming, but I have actually gotten fairly good at avoiding them, either by running, or shielding if I have that. and while the shield does leave you vulnerable that's why you play in teams. and why I hate when I get a stupid team. but when I get a team with people that actually cover each other. Then it's bliss. Doesn't work if you lone wolf it of course.

True, but my point is that two competent teams know how to play, and thus when the outcome is the same every time depending on team position and not team skill there is an issue. This is what I have seen happen in ALL team objective gametypes save for Oddball (Oddball always sucked though). Even Invasion isn't devoid of this (spartans almost always win Invasion and Elites almost always win Invasion Slayer).

[HawkMan]

If the elites make it past the first step on invasion, chances are 50/50 ish, actually, slightly in favor of elites, but at that point it's very close to 50/50.

The issue there is that the first step, is somewhat to defensible for the spartans, and a unusually high number of games will end with a crushing elite defeat, not a majority or even close to half by any means. but a worryingly high percentage. If the skill edge is slightly in favor of the spartans, they probably will successfully defend the first stage.

I think this could be solved by giving the elites a different set of initial loadouts, the plasma repeater one is ok enough. But I'm not sure the stealth one is up to the task of the initial assault.

Also one thing that bugs me. the ability for spartans, and elites, to run just as fast backwards as forwards... I get that it's part of the fst paced nature of thegame. but it's ridiculous, that you can get shot dead by the guy runnign backwards as you're about to skewer him on a sword.

[Emn1ty]

Also one thing that bugs me. the ability for spartans, and elites, to run just as fast backwards as forwards... I get that it's part of the fst paced nature of thegame. but it's ridiculous, that you can get shot dead by the guy runnign backwards as you're about to skewer him on a sword.

You actually run a tad bit slower backwards.

[HawkMan]

So I located a major flaw.

there's no icon next to the player while you're in game showing he's talking, so I had to liston to some moron think he could sing for an entire round of invasions.

[Emn1ty]

Yeah, seeing as you can hear your entire team but indicators aren't active for all of them so you can't tell if they are talking.

[HawkMan]

There should also be an indication next to each team what if they're spartan or elite. I'm not even sure if the teams are sorted in all spartan teams on top and elites below or visa versa...

[Emn1ty]

What really irks me is that when you go in with more than two players you constantly get separated. I really am growing tired of going in with six people and always seeing two of my friends on the opposing team.

[Cupcakes]

Emn1ty, are you going into a 4x4 playlist? A party larger than 4 means the excess are split onto the opposing team.